The Browser Wasn’t Enough, Google Wants To Control All Your Software
10 months ago by mesa to c/technology
You can stop using all Google products. Now I understand their market share on the web means they’re going to continue to shape the web.
But make no mistake. There is something, however small, that you can do. De-Google.
For me, MitID in Denmark. 100% required for society and life here, requires Google Play Services now :(
I tried e/os on my Fairphone for a bit. I think I could make it all work okay enough besides that. I should write people at the government or something I guess?
Got any advice on alternatives to Drive? I keep considering nextcloud, but people I know have said it's a resource hog and finicky at best.
people I know have said it’s a resource hog and finicky at best
Those people may be the kind who tell you formatting your hard drive and reinstalling windows every other week is the best way to keep it 'clean'.
Ive been using Nextcloud at multiple businesses for years, its a rock.
If you're looking to self-host, nextcloud is the way go. But if you're just looking for a drive alternative, there's plenty of simpler alternatives, like proton or kdrive.
The UI is a little crazy but I am a big fan of copyparty. I have moved my entire family off of Google Drive and we use copyparty, and it works great. Uploads are fast, lots of features, easy to stand up and doesn't consume lots of resources. But like I said, the UI could be better.
I run Nextcloud inside a VM, running on a decade+ old Intel gen 3 computer and the interface is snappier than navigating around google drive.
It is finickier to self-host than syncthing though, if all you need is sync. There are also tones of providers out there that will sell you Nextcloud or similar services.
Seafile is an alternative for self-hosting: https://www.seafile.com/...
I haven't tried it. Seems to be more efficient than Nextcloud. It also has way less features. So. 🤷
You've got some good suggestions, I think most of the suggestions I can think of. Nextcloud is of course the big one but after using it for quite a while, I think it's important to break down your needs. If you need file sharing/syncing only, there are better options that are easier and faster. If you only need chat/voice, rocket chat is really lightweight and easy. If you need file sharing, online office suite, chat, etc. Then Nextcloud is the right option. Just keep in mind, even if you think you need some of those things, will anyone but you ever actually use them? No, they won't, because they don't appreciate how cool it is to self host and how much effort you put into it.
I moved to pCloud + Cryptomator for general cloud file storage and Cryptpad for online document editing. These cover some of the main functions of Google Drive.
Syncthing is good if you just want files to show up on more than one machine, with no cloud services involved.
Sign up for 10 different free accounts of Proton Drive? It has 5gb free cloud storage.
Though I always prefer the simple physical backup to SD card and backup to PC.
I also have a simple sshd server and use sftp when I'm feeling frisky.
Sending from any device to any device using KDE connect is good too.
Email? Its about the only thing leaving me on googles platform ATM. I can self host (with mailinabox) but....I kinda dont want to? Its so much work and I would rather do other things with my time.
I wouldn't self host email. But I would pay for a host and get away from Gmail. Wait until Black Friday and get free/cheap services from a bunch of places. Maybe even proton if you're okay with them. Also, using your own domain for email is pretty cool (to me).
I use my web host for email. I looked into hosting it myself but it looked way too fragile. The service is included with the website so it's not like I'm spending any extra money that I wasn't going to already...
Maybe porkbun if you just need email?
I really like Runbox. Nothing particularity fancy, just pure standards compliant email, with excellent reputation, for a very low cost. They have a “drive” too.
There’s also mailbox.org, tuta, the upcoming “thunder mail”, proton, fast mail, probably your domain provider or VPS provider offers email as an add on. Consider paying for a email and a domain. It can be as low as $30 a year, and you become the customer instead of the product. Owning your identity.
You can stop using all Google products.
My public school -- that my children are basically required by law to attend, remember -- is badgering me to sign a consent form so they can have Chromebooks.
This fight is a lot fucking larger than mere individual boycotts!
And my kids school requires every parent to have a Google account to track progress and share information.
What happens if you refuse?
Earlier in my school years, we had to use Microsoft Office products. Then later on we were expected to use Google Drive, as they wanted to teach us what we can use without paying Microsoft.
At one point it was also mandatory to have a blog because the teacher was big on Web 2.0, and they of course pushed blogspot (Google). I think I went with managed wordpress instead, but may remember wrong.
cant you give your child a cheap laptop, or they require thier inhouse shitty ones, use only?
I don't know yet; I'm about to email the media coordinator to find out what happens when I refuse to sign the form.
My kids already have Raspberry Pi 400s (might upgrade them to 500s soon), and I have about half a dozen other computers (not including old retired stuff or my pile of other Raspberry Pis), all running Linux. This house is not at all lacking in technology, and I no longer tolerate proprietary shit in it.
What's really fucked up is that the school district makes all these decisions basically unilaterally -- not just for Chromebooks, but for other proprietary nonsense like ClassDojo and Remind and MySchoolBucks -- and just assumes every parent will be cool with unquestioningly entering contracts with all these third-party entities. And even worse, most parents are cool with it!
At the highschool I went to, there was some standardized testing (act, ap tests) done in locked down software installed on the chromebooks. Like instead of logging into your user, it was before login with no browser or anything. It sometimes let you have desmos and a small place to take notes.
De-Google
The complaint is side loading is being restricted and the only long term alternative Apple. Google already began the process of shutting down Graphene by cutting drivers out of AOSP.
Hang on, as somebody who knows enough to be looking into switching to graphene, but not entirely enough to know what AOSP is, what exactly is happening?
Am I going to fuck myself over? If I do end up switching to a custom rom? Should I just wait on the Linux community to build something better?
All I want is a working device that isn't selling all my shit to Mark Zuckerberg
G is restricting the factory images/source (I believe) that graphene uses to build their system, so they are having to work backwards, take more time, etc. It's a shitty thing to do but afaik it's not a blocker. I'm typing this on a gos pixel 8 pro right now.
Linux phones are still in their infancy, and are pretty shit if you need anything more than the ability to call and text (sms) on specific carriers (limitations applies to the USA, AUS, and a couple more I believe). I have a pinephone 1st gen and it's... Cool for messing with, absolutely, but jesus christ it's painful to actually attempt to use. I bought that 3y ago and not much has changed, from videos I've seen (my pinephone screen is lifting and failing so...). From a developer - like, bringing Linux to the phone platform - sure, grab one. As a user, unless you understand that you very likely will not daily this device (or any similar device) because shit just doesn't work/isn't ready and are OK with that... No, don't. A few more years, maybe.
If you get a device and install Graphine now, it should be fine. It’s your future device options that will probably not include an AOSP alternative os. Hopefully Linux will be an option then, but there might be a bit of a dark age in between.
You will have years of Graphene so don't worry about what might happen in the future.
You can stop using all Google products.
That may be true for you, but other people face different realities. When Google implements the sideloading block it will eventually be pushed to everyone who doesn't use a custom ROM.
also not everyone is saavy enough to use obscure services too.
Not everyone cares enough to avoid Google. Some of us that want to do so are related to them.
I wonder if it's economically plausible to make a FPGA-based all-in-one system. In a "smartphone" box, maybe far weaker than most Android phones, but far less tall in expertise needed to do anything, for a low start to be possible without humongous investment and expected minimal parties. Something graphical Lisp-based as an OS. Perhaps with an interface to use it as a tablet when attached to a bigger box, or a laptop when attached to that box.
Focusing on having the necessary modules and input-output devices, with the FPGA itself being configured with something simple-enough RISC-V based with tagged memory, for example.
Like when you need a portable computer with cell connectivity and a battery, and want to have some choice, but are not too attached to specific platforms and popular places.
It seems that for militaries using FPGA is already an established practice, turns out to be more convenient and even cheaper. And with anything trying to fight big companies, it seems using FPGA will make more sense.
I mean, Sun Tzu wrote about "when you know your enemy and know yourself", all that. Knowing myself I'm certain that trying to take on anyone bigger and smarter than me using things on their level of complexity is a failure from the start. Knowing them is beyond my ability in general, but we definitely know that those companies are led by very intelligent people who just won't make the simpler kind of mistakes. And he also wrote a bit on the "death grounds", where if you leave a path for retreat, that's not a death ground. I think paths for retreat like alternative Android versions and such are all intentionally let be, so that you'd not resist too much.
Or, this is sort of a fewer dream, or bipolar psychosis to be more specific.
Yes, many at risk programs and housing programs and even Medicare and Medicaid provide phones and other devices to members and those device contracts with Google or via a cellular provider are for hundreds of thousands to millions of people depending on the state or federal program doing the purchasing. There isn’t a reality where those contracts will ever not be for first party devices. Even if we wanted to we couldn’t buy people one plus or other non-Google branded android devices and laptops in these programs because the companies selling them don’t meet various regulatory standards required by the programs.
These people are literally the most at risk and don’t get individual choice for their devices. The devices are being provided in the first place because too many modern systems require internet and phone access. Id.me, login.gov, MFA for your library app, your epic or Athena portals for healthcare, etc…
Honestly Googles products are terrible these days. I have been pretty lax about my privacy but after so much enshittification I switched my services to something that works and doesn't harvest my data for the privilege.
When they kill off Graphene/Custom ROMs I'll switch to a linux phone or brickphone.
What I wouldn't give for a very simple linux phone. Not android based. That I can call/message from.
Closest I came across that was neat: https://www.wiphone.io/
While pretty neat, I'd have a hard time even calling the WiPhone a phone if it doesn't have a cellular modem. You're entirely dependent on having a wifi connection. I suppose it could serve as a replacement for a landline, but that's about it.
Now that AOSP is closing, what are we supposed to do?
AOSP is not closing, the device trees for all older pixels are still there
Then don't use the apps? Do your banking through the browser.
I feel like this isnt always true. I had a GrapheneOS pixel for a while and it never had problems with banking apps
I was thinking of switching to Proton. I use Gmail, Google Photos, Google Messages, Drive, Keep, Maps, Docs, Sheets. I pay $2 a month for 100gb and unlimited photos on Google. It's a good deal. The fact that I would have to find out out to make a server, buy storage, piece meal a bunch of open source software that will inevitably not work without tinkering all makes it so easy just to pay the $2 a month.
i pay $20 a year for basically all of that and even more stuff but open source provided and maintained by a local server company in my country. of course i don't use half of their offerings because some stuff has alternatives more suited for the platform or its simply not needed. but e.g. their service offers nextcloud which has most of the stuff you listed bundled into the platform by default. and then they have another 50 services added on top available for use.
The only people who can de google are basically single shut ins with a job that doesnt use anything google.
If you have kids or a company that uses google products. It's a bad fucking joke to talk like it's even a realistic option.
Google is basically shoved down your throat. In most cases by the law literally. Seriously FUCK how tied the public education system is to google now.
if I don't use android or iOS, I can't use my banking apps, pay with my phone, access government services as they require an app to sign in, etc. it's just not doable anymore for me
I think they are more conscious than to be driven by small margins (another example of such underestimation is Lenin's "they'll sell us the rope we'll use to hang them").
It's like boiling frogs - a very slow process of attracting users, slowly killing competition and diversity, slowly making the ecosystem more and more controlled, then slowly making "neutral" systems not neutral anymore (like those features of Chrome making security exceptions for Google services found a few years ago), and slowly desensitizing people to leaps of faith they do trusting Google (and other companies), while the trust accumulates into total control.
This is not late stage capitalism. This is mid stage at best. The entire economy and world population could be shrunk down to literally pennies, as the wealth gap widens. It could have us ending up like district 9, or Elysium as broad examples. The govt and entities have not even started cracking down on illegal activities, loop holes, bank accounts, cash spending, crypto, and more in the super strict enforced fashion they could be.
While rightly fucked up and enshittified. We could be so so much further down the capitalism rabbit hole of hell. Everyone should be boycotting and avoiding the largest companies as a whole. No change you make goes unnoticed. You might be less than 1 percent but the snowball effects happen. Movements, parties, resistance, change, software, everything adds up.
So what you can do. Don't go mentally insane about it. Most things don't require THAT much effort. A simple tweak here or there makes an impact.
That's what Android was and they keep trying to undo that any way they can
We need a new one that isn't made by a for-profit company that only was good at the beginning to get total market saturation before flipping the enshittification switch to maximize those profits.
All the non-Google entities that build stuff on Android need to start banding together instead of siloing themselves. If AOSP is being closed, they need to create a non-profit replacement for it.
Makes me curious if they think their monopoly or whatever they were called cases making them split their browser are going to go though. If you are going to have to sell parts of the company, now would be the time to hammer home any last minute bad things that would make the companies more profitable. Shows higher income for the sale, and gets it out of the way so the new purchaser doesn't look like the ones who did it, but rather the ones who will make announcements on how they will review things to make them better for the user base.
Doesn't mean they'll follow through on them, but it takes the evil and sticks it with the old owners.
I disagree. Google has always been a thinly veiled Microsoft. A wolf in sheeps clothing. They embrace, extend, extinguish. It's the same thing.
All corporations suck fucking donkey dick because consumers are morons.
and many phone manfacterers, issuers(non google, samsung, or IOs) IS CONSIDERING locking down thier phones.
I wonder if the generic tablets with made up Asian sounding names that you see on the big marketplaces could work? They could have slightly larger or smaller screens if they're cheaper than current phone screens, and could have Linux with something like Signal on them for calling.
They'd probably be lower quality to begin with, but could potentially get better if people start to buy them. They seem to have generic hardware, so might be able to offer the drivers and unlockable bootloaders too :)
the best outcome for the short term would be to forcibly take away android from google and give it to an independent foundation. as I heard antitrust proceedings in the usa were heading that way a few months ago
not with trump around.
So basically remove Google integration from AOSP?
FuriOS? Linux-based and runs Android apps.
Interesting. I've not heard of FuriOS, but if it is a Linux phone that actually can be used with US carriers, makes calls and supports SMS/MMS, and can do VoLTE that's a actually a pretty big deal.
Whenever you see a linux phone advertise both security and android app support, you should be wary, since it's likely waydroid or a waydroid fork, and their design goal of running android in a container instead of a VM has lead to some interesting security decisions.
I would be very happy if anyone could explain to me in a simple and coherent way why I, as a normal user who am aware of what I am doing on my device and am not targeted by any group that's out to get me, would need a "hardened malloc", "secure app spawning", "vanadium browser and webview", or a "hardened PDF viewer". The last of these four is the only thing that means anything to me, and it sounds dumb. Yeah, I know PDFs can be dangerous if you open random shit, but come on.
If I run Waydroid it's only to get my banking app (trusted source) and Whatsapp (not a trusted source but not directly malware either) working. I hardly need their hardened PDF reader.
Not just your two android apps, any program on your system that is aware of your waydroid installation could potentially use it as a path to escalate themselves to root, which is generally regarded as a bad outcome. If you don't care about that kind of thing, or don't think that could ever happen to you, that's certainly within your rights to hold such a viewpoint.
Still using Android 11? Holy hell.
You realize how many things have gotten shittier since android 11? Accubattery isn't even allowed to monitor everything using up juice any more. You can't customize your own charging curves, you're locked out of accessing portions of your storage on your own phone, and a lot of great power user apks had to completely hit themselves or just stop working all together.
What do you need from after 11 that an apk wouldn't have allowed you to do already?
I don't know about anyone else, but I got into computers at a young age because it gave me a sense of control over something. I didn't understand everything, but I could do a lot of trial and error, read things and experiment, build cool things, and I shared a sense of community with some random internet strangers based on that knowledge.
In a world where we are so powerless in so many other ways, why did we insist on bringing that power dynamic into the new bright tech sphere? Why did we have to do that? (N.B. this is rhetorical questioning).
My university actually teaches about the "Meger Endgame theory" (yes, my professor had fun with that one), which states that industries will consolidate until 2-3 global market leaders dominate. So uhh, it's not just you. Idk if that's good or bad news for you haha
There are at least two generations of us who are disappointed at the contrast between tech's possibilities as envisioned decades ago and the corporate surveillance crap we have to put up with today.
The thing that really gets to me is how we've gone from "Here, let us sell you a computer that you can push to its limits however you see fit" to "We will sell you a device and ensure you use that device within a given sphere of acceptability".
I own this phone/computer/tablet/console/whatever, so why the fuck do I have to adhere to their rules? Rules they've changed since I bought the device, of course.
We, as in the average every day people, didn't do shit. The corporations that make the shit we use are the ones who got us here. The only thing the people using the devices and software are guilty of is not making a fuss about losing control over the stuff becsuse the average person does not care that deeply about the tools and likely doesn't even know about a good 75% of what was lost.
Thanks for your low quality input.
When reading cyberpunk lore, quickhacks didn't make any sense to me. Some programs that break cyberware because of backdoors, but why would people install cyberware with backdoors?
Now I look at the sad state of mobile market and, yeah ok, that makes sense.
I mean the cyberware is a direct neural interface so presumably it must be able to manipulate and alter the levels and balance of your neurotransmitters. Im sure increasing aome to insane levels would have pretty toxic effects, like serotonin syndrome for example.
I suppose that's a good enough hand wave explanation.
I thought though, just purely for curiosities sake, that neurotransmitters are released by a voltage potential difference over some sort of gate caused by a flood of sodium ions (a chemical signal), and it's not just a matter of conducting current. That means the cyberware has to somehow attach inside the axon and on the outside, across the gate to create that voltage difference. And that's for one gate.
I feel like the more one thinks about this the more the name should be changed to 3077.
Easily the most disgusting company in the planet and it’s funny that their old motto/slogan was ”Don’t be evil”.
Sounds like you're not familiar with Oracle...
I've recently gotten to think that the company which made the basement for all these disgusting companies is usually viewed as not just not disgusting, but almost holy. Meaning Sun. So, maybe, judging the tree by its fruits, the most disgusting company was Sun.
I mean, I know that everyone who used their products and of course people who worked there are still in awe and remember it like a Soviet summer camp shown in the Everlasting Summer game.
But perhaps that's misguided. They've built the hierarchical systems, the infrastructure, for all the dystopia of today, and their code still powers much of it.
Also you know how the second competitor in an almost monopolized market is sometimes considered an accomplice of monopoly? Because they are strong enough to support some of its ways, while the rest are not. So they reinforce it. I'm also looking at Firefox writing this. Literally.
Perhaps we'd have a better environment office-wise if LibreOffice and OpenOffice were not a thing. They support MS formats, thus indirectly contributing to MS dominance. The network effects work in a few different ways, while were it different, those desperately needing MS documents would use MSO, at the same time those just needing some office suite would possibly not.
Perhaps that can also be applied to Unix and Unix-likes, Sun made a lot of momentum for Unix and Unix-like desktops when they contributed to TCL/Tk so that it became a tool for making Unix and Unix-like desktop applications easily. And when they created Java and Java applets in web browsers prepared the public for scripts in browsers and cross-platform applications served over net.
Yes, it all felt like heaven behind the corner, but perhaps they are to blame. What if.
After all, much of that was free or for the cost of a CD then, and free cheese usually is part of a trap. Perhaps if instead commercial competing platforms, like Amiga or even Apple, were to gain more following, we'd have a different world. All those development resources couldn't have been gifted (Sun in the 90s, I mean, and honestly many universities) out of nowhere, something made that worth the expense.
Or, if we want free and open, Lisp environments are somewhat easier to hack on (also again about TCL, it kinda approaches that in convenience for a non-programmer to make something simple, quick and dirty, but good enough), and accessibility to wider, eh, masses is meaningful here. So maybe GNU shouldn't have gone with a Unix-like system idea. I mean, OK, they do have a Lisp environment fit for everything, it's called Emacs.
BTW, about disgusting companies coming to mind first, I'm not disgusted by Oracle, in comparison to most other big ones they do honest business. I dunno why they are hated, uncle Larry says dystopian shit with enthusiasm and no remorse, but at the same time his company sells exactly what it advertises. It's all kinda open and straightforward, it's the "one rich asshole called Larry Ellison" company, which may not be what someone likes, but is certainly better than companies actively building worldwide digital fascism (it, of course, offers expertise and help to those who do in case they need it). Also he's really a self-made man. Unlike all those other types from good families, good environments and with good education.
OK. I just have that conspiracy theory brewing in my mind about Sun actually being evil. Sorry.
Look up Microsoft in the early 90s and how we all got through it.
tbf, we all got through it by just going to other platforms. now there’s almost no other platforms to go to because big tech either pressures them until they fold, or sell to them and become part of their umbrella as some shill company or they remain independent but still use big tech software to run their backend, so your info ends up going to them anyway.
i think in the future, everyone will be forced into surveillance by default and those who don’t will have to either pay dearly for privacy or learn how to program their own security. checkout project gideon that’s already getting pitched to the united states government and other governments from israel. it’s literally that show “person of interest” plus
Always has been
IS THAT A FUCKING HEADPHONE JACK!?
Let's go 🔥🔥🔥
Standards are low huh?
It's nice, and good to see more of a push. However, I think kill switches for at least microphone and camera should be the new default. It's absolutely ridiculous to walk around with an internet connected mic and a camera that looks at your face whenever you look at your phone. Personally, I'll never carry a phone around anymore that doesn't have mics and cameras desoldered or there's a kill switch. For the back camera a cover with a slide is fine, but doesn't really work with the front part.
I would carry around a flip phone if my work didn't require Passkeys generated exclusively from MS Authenticator.
I just put stickers on the selfie camera.
Neat! And a removable battery.
Debian too! Always liked me some Debian, super stable.
Sign me the fuck up!
The specs look quite decent, and it even has an SD card slot. I really would love to get away from android.
As long as companies can keep pumping shitty, almost entirely closed off android phones that cost less than 200 dollars for consumers (selling hardware at a loss while making up for data harvesting and sale), "linux mobile" will be just another meme along with "year of the linux desktop"
I want to believe, I really do. But I fear that the crypto apps people have grown dependent on will make it harder than the desktop battle. And IDK but I seem to recall every year since at least 2001 being proclaimed to be the year of the Linux desktop.
I rely on my banking apps (plural), governmental email app, government authentificator app and the governmental LMS app for public schools to make my everyday function. And the last time I tried just a custom ROM, those apps refused to run.
A phone that can't do NFC payment, banking and authenticator work is not a phone. It's a pile of shit that's little more than a toy for children.
Nothing wrong with toys, but they arnt useable products worth any amount of real money.
is this legit?
The EU's been breathing down Apple's neck for them trying to do similar shit, so i find the timing kinda weird.
Plus they'd need to force-update their spyware first, i wonder how many versions of android they're willing to go back.
Yet Apple has been able to profit from their walled garden for decades now. Doesn't that set a precedent that it's okay? I honestly don't blame Google for going this route—it's inaction from our policymakers that has created the space for abuse.
When our policymakers take direction from capitalists, it’s ok to blame to capitalists.
Yeah I was going to say it's better to blame the policy makers but who the fuck cares? Neither side of that coin does.
Interesting perspective. So the suggestion is to redirect our blame away from our elected representatives or even from electing representatives that run on a campaign that aligns with our priorities.
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion based on what I wrote, but my suggestion is to not let companies escape consequences for shitty things they do simply because regulators fail to be effective at their jobs. Legally allowed is not the same as morally acceptable.
Apple requires developers to go through a Notarization process, much in the same way that Google intends to introduce restrictions to sideloading on Android. How is this different?
It isn't, now that apple is using that to block installation of third party apps I'm expecting the EU to once again step in.
I feel like this is the new normal cycle of every software company. Once they become a leader, it's never enough. It replicates the rise of billionaires. Just as the billionaires being rich beyond anything they and all of their succeeding generations could ever spend is not enough, being the industry leader and producing an amazing product that people want is somehow not enough. It always turns to control and power.
I can't wait for AI to become a living corporate trillionaire entity and fuck us all to the end of humanity.
At some point they get large enough that the whims of users cease to affect their decision-making. If Google, Meta, and MS tomorrow rolled out a social credit system that made the Chinese version look generous, 95+% of their users would not change a THING to avoid it. Maybe 98% of their users.
Wait until Google locks the bootloader.
I know that the GrapheneOS team have mumbled about the possibility of working on their own device. Although, this would probably be a long way off if it ever did come to fruition.
Donate to the project. Graphene is run by a very small group of people who are very good at automation.
I don't think they could effectively produce a whole new platform unless they had a lot more help.
If you value privacy, gonna have to crack open the wallet or volunteer to help.
If we just hope someone will save us, we are going to be very disappointed.
Then the community shifts to a different model, or puts more resources behind mobile Linux projects, and all that would need to happen is something like what Valve did for Linux for the Steam Deck.
I'm ready to switch to a Linux phone as soon as I can find one where the basic phone features work properly (MMS, wake from sleep, camera, etc). The more people like me can switch, the closer we'll be to mainstream adoption. That's the same process as Linux has been going through: I switched before Steam on Linux was a thing, then Steam came and more switched, then Proton made windows games work and more switched, etc, and now we're seeing the start of "normal" people switching.
I hope that happens before my Pixel 8 goes out of support or breaks.
https://furilabs.com/shop/flx1/
I'm already seriously considering giving this a go as my next phone soon. My current phone is desperately in need of replacement.
If it goes well I will be vocal about it.
Furi Labs runs a fully optimized system called Furi OS
If I were to switch to a Linux phone I'd want it to be made for an open and trusted OS, not the (unknown to me at least) manufacturers own.
Yeah, it looks cool, but I'm not really in a position to be a guinea pig. If they were around 2 years ago, I probably would've given it a shot.
I am looking for another phone at some point in the next year (kids getting about that age), so if I hear good things, I might just pull the trigger. It is a bit chonkier than my current phone, which isn't great (30mm longer, 10mm wider, and 110g heavier), but according to reviews, it seems to fix all the issues I have w/ the PinePhone.
Who knows, maybe your review will push me over the edge in deciding to get it.
It's very "meh..." with the added benefit of several (non-google) apps not working (/s). I choose to live with this inconvenience, but it still bothers me that my smartphone is significantly less useful in my daily life.
You always have a choice. You can ditch your morals entirely, give up, be subservient to the capitalists and give your identity over fully to the system like the good little consumer slave you are and enjoy your normie life looking at your normie phone and toss us all out as tinfoil-hatted weirdos who almost convinced you to make your life worse for the sake of self-sufficiency, independence and privacy.
No one in the real world will ever know, care, or judge you. Only you will know that you gave up, that every location you exist in is known about by someone behind a monitor being overseen by fascists. Every day! You can live with that, right? That's a small thing to give up in the grand scheme of things, isn't it? At least Youtube loaded today, right? It's all worth it, lol.
Just remember to type "thanks" in google keyboard whenever you want them to know you appreciate them. They log it.
Oh yes I forgot that pointing out the flaws in privacy-related things, so people who are interested in switching know what they're potentially getting in to, is a big NoNo here...all hail the perfect FOSS which can do no wrong.
Honestly, smart phones being less useful in daily life is probably a good thing.
GrapheneOS is not worse than other custom ROMs, never said it was. it's a mediocre experience best described with a "meh..." and a shrug.
I went from 15 years of iPhones directly to Graphene, without really messing with Android in between, so my experience has been a STEEP learning curve, followed by a fairly hum-drum experience. But honestly, that's fine. I want my phone to take more of a back seat and not be something I keep needing to worry about.
My banking app doesn't work in Graphene, but the website does, so I don't really mind.
It could that there's a whole bunch of shit I'm missing, but mostly it's... fine.
There's a thriving used market with significant discounts if you're willing to go 1-2 models back from the latest ones.
The issue isn't that. It's that devs may juat abandon projects if they're too naughty for Google cos the custom ROM crowd is so tiny.
Right so think torrent clients, idk, Pornhub app, that sort of thing. Yeah, it doesn't affect your phone. But it absolutely will affect what software is available at all should Google clamp down on this.
I want to know, too. I got a Samsung s23 when my last phone suddenly died and I only then realized thar it wasn't compatible.
The joke is that GrapheneOS only works on Google Pixel phones.
Fuck Google!
Gives Google $900
I noticed that, and they are expensive.
they just want to confirm a malicious actor didn’t develop it
So Newpipe, SmartTube, Nintendo emulators...
Clones of opensource apps bundled with ads that violates license is OK, but restricting everyone to build and test apps from source so it can test new features and report any issues is too risky for the user
now it's just a race for the giant conglomerates to make the worst decisions for consumers
Your computer no longer "computes", its just a barebones terminal to access a "virtual pc" in the cloud.
Good news, you don't need to pay $1000 for a good laptop, all you need is this $50 windows machine that only runs a client that streams a live feed from MS Headquarters
Bad news, its a subscription, stop paying and you lose all files.
Wait a minute did you type a "Eat The Rich" document, sorry can't have that, violates ToS, deleted.
Fahrenheit 451 x 1984
894,784 degrees
Yep. There's no such thing as competition any more.
Tech companies are just gas stations across the street from each other.
and you don't have a choice atp its just forced enshittifcation down your throat!!
As shitty as M$ is, it would have been nice to see Windows phone become moderately successful and be a third primary mobile os.
That's would just be Windows 11 S Mobile Edition, but you do not get the option to upgrade to Windows 11 Home Mobile Edition as you would on a PC
Or maybe you do get an option, but its a subscription for $50 per quarter-year. 🫠
And 16GB storage (because everything is being saved to OneDrive anyway).
Not much different than Google. Keeping their mobile device storage low and then officially advising people to just store stuff on Google drive instead.
Thus driving people to pay for Google One.
I'd prefer that firefox os had caught on and turned into a big player today
I disagree. That would've just been more garbage like with the xbox.
I’m playing gears on PS5 as we speak. Ha ha. What a shipwreck XBOX has become.
As a platform holder is terrible, I have a series X and it’s a paperweight.
No way - it was a good phone at the time. I had a Lumia 640 and it worked like a charm. There was only a small range of apps, but the main features worked fine: mail, calendar, messaging, camera and route planner with a map. There were news readers, Acrobat. I did not miss much and if M$ sold it's software better to other manufacturers than Nokia, I think it would have worked well and fitted between Apple and Google.
I would have rather seen the development of BBOS10. It was so far ahead of its time.
That whole thing we do with swipe gestures to navigate the android interface? Yeah BBOS had that years ago.
I miss my Passport.
I still have my BlackBerry Passport.
I came here specifically to ask about alternatives to Android now that google is becoming too abusive in the relationship.
That's unfortunately a dealbreaker for me. I have a free phone from some company I've never heard of and I don't plan on buying a new one. Hopefully we will see more progress on mobile operating systems in the coming years.
Unfortunately, things are heading in the opposite direction. The number of phones you can install other os's on is dwindling by the day. Even the phones designed solely for this purpose are failing to capture enough market to remain sustainable.
The OS's are getting there by leaps and bounds, but you being able to install it on anything is the hard part.
Custom Android ROMs based on AOSP, which is the open source parts of Android. I used to use LineageOS back in the day.
Before buying a phone, make sure that it has an unlockable bootloader and a custom ROM of a recent Android version. Note that some phones have multiple versions for different regions and some might not be unlockable, while others are. For example many Samsung international phones are unlockable, but none of the USA models are.
Note that many commercial apps like Netflix, Pokémon Go, bank apps, etc. will refuse to run if your bootloader is unlocked. It also permanently trips Samsung's Knox.
Unfortunately, this seems to be something that might be changing in the future. Google isn't going to be open source with android development anymore.
I was looking into it a few ago. I found something made in Europe which advertise as more consumer friendly (Fairphone). If I got it right they want to stand out of the crowd by:
- Selling phones that can be repaired easily;
- Offer a de-googled OS based on Android.
The second point could be interesting, considering this Google abusive behavior towards users. Moreover, there is another thing that caught my attention: their devices (the last one is missing, but maybe it's just too new?) are supported by Ubuntu Touch, which should be just a Linux OS running on phones. That would be my dream, so that I can consider my phone just a computer with all the freedom I can get, such as write down my bash/python/C applications to do what I want to do without having to mess up with all that Android development suite.
However, if I am not mistaken, in the past I heard some bad reviews about Fairphone, so you should perform your due diligence.
And they can suckle upon my peener.
I'll go to Graphine or something else before I let the company for whom "don't be evil" was too bold a statement dictate my fuckin' choices.
I already ditched Windows. Can't be that hard to cut Google out too.
Graphene has locked itself to google hardware, and google can cripple them at any point by stopping bootloader unlocks. We need to go deeper, or aim higher as it were
They have stated that they're more than willing to work with any manufacturer who is prepared to make a device that meets their security standards. But as it stands, Pixels are the only unlockable devices that meet that standard.
Someone like Fairphone could do pretty well from a tie-in with Graphene. But it's up to them.
Not that they locked themselves but other vendors locked and isolated themselves by not provideing enough hardware and software security measures so graphebne will be able to strenghten them
They haven't locked themselves to Google hardware by choice, it's the only hardware with the security features they need so far.
Remember graphenes goal is a very secure OS, not just a more private degoogled one, for that there's /e/os and other options that support more hardware.
I’m bothered that big companies, especially tech right now, no longer see their customers as people they need to please to stay in business, but instead as something they’ll inconvenience and squeeze as much as they can possibly get away with.
They all got to where they are making, at one point, amazing products. Now? Fuck making windows useful, we can throw ads and AI at you every place we can think of. Fuck all of the parts of Android that made it stand out, we tell you what to install. You don’t want all of your data scraped and sold? Fuck you, there’s 3 of us and we’re all doing it. In fact we’ll never stop finding new ways to harvest data.
Phones have basically stagnated entirely in the US. Sure you get moderately better chipsets, but what else? AI? I haven’t had a phone struggle with anything in… maybe 10 years. Instead features that people didn’t use enough just get removed.
Year of the Linux phone, I guess.
google is pissed people were deleting that spying app on android phones, plus thier constant attack on adblocking on youtube wasnt working to well. since samsung and iphones pretty much walled in thier os, why not google.
Thanks! I remember safety codes now: it looks at all your pictures and says it only blocks CSAM, but who knows if it is trustworthy or if it misidentifies something.
The other o e from what I can tell is trying to add e2ee to google message? How does it spy?
Edit: https://grouphowto.com/...
Looks like it is mostly a good thing?
that spy app they were using a few months ago was just the first test.
the android safetycore app.
In an environment most convenient for making webapps people make webapps.
It's not even such a wrong idea honestly, if the "web" in "webapp" were a bit leaner and you'd make local applications with something document-oriented for GUI looking at a local service. It's just a decent bit of structure to make application design easier. Nothing wrong with that IMHO.
But, ahem, when by "webapp" we mean that we have a browser fulfilling the role of an operating system, and there's one company making it, then something is wrong.
chrome is at thier limits, since people can just use a different browser/
of course google wants every developers id the second they get into bed with a fascist federal government
Time to back to the analog world and short wave radios.
okay well goodbye Google, then
what's the alternative here?
!remindme 2 years
Is this only google phones or all of android?
Sucks. Thanks.
just dont update your phone problem solved
Or forced updates
We still need security updates.
This sucks for the average person but, well, everything tends to. If you don't look for avenues around literally everything "default", you're being scammed. They don't, so they will be.
I do, so I'll be carrying a Oneplus 6T and slapping a mobile Linux OS on it for my needs.
that's not usable!
For you.
If you don’t look for avenues around literally everything “default”, you’re being scammed. They don’t, so they will be.
And this is why the real solution we need is enforcement of anti-trust law, not mere individual boycotts.
There is an interesting new breed of flip phones that can be tethered to for internet access. I could imagine a flip-phone + laptop setup being perfect for a lot of users here.
I think my CatB40 dumb phone does tethering, a flip phone would look cooler though. What are some good ones to look for? But as I occasionally have it in a pouch for kayaking it might not be the most useful to have a flip phone as you can't really open it when its sealed. But if cheap enough I could always swap a SIM between a few.
I'm going to try all of them. I've always wanted to just go to ebay, buy a 6T and try some of these operating systems. It's the target phone for about half of them. What interests me the most is Plasma Mobile on PostmarketOS. It looks slick and not too dissimilar from Android.
Linux on mobile is very model specific. The 6T isn't even perfectly supported by anything, it's just supported enough to be functional.
Why the 6T? Just the right mix of hardware that released with the right mix of software to make it ideal. the Pixel 3 also had a lot of Linux compatibility.
If you don’t look for avenues around literally everything “default”, you’re being scammed.
This is unfortunately true. I'm glad some people realize it, but I wish we didn't have to.
This abuse needs to end. Heads are going to roll.
Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask, but I literally have no idea in which community this question goes.
I just got Samsung Galaxy A16, and then I learn just how controlling Google/Android is becoming. Research says I SHOULD be able to deGoogle and flash a linux OS custom Android ROM
My question is, as a beginner, which one should I go for? does it have any issues I need to look out for?
Note: Edited for clarity.
You cannot do so on Samsung devices. They have disabled the ability to unlock the bootloader on their devices and therefore you cannot install custom operating systems on them anymore.
If you want to install custom software like that, you always have to do your research beforehand and choose a device that will allow you to do so.
Since when is this the case?
Dammit :(
Further reading says its most likely because European Union law 2014/53/EU which imposes new cybersecurity requirements on device manufacturers like Samsung. They must ensure that the devices they sell in Europe block the installation of unauthorized software and only run signed and approved ROMs. . Law was enforced August 01 2025.
Luckily my old phone still works (it is starting to show its age though). Gonna stretch it as long as possible. Hopefully someone will find a hack by then.
My Note 20 Ultra (US) came out like 5+ years ago and you can't unlock the bootloader. There was a workable hack job that was possible for a little while, but even that got patched up through a firmware update back in like 2021, and there's no way to roll back firmware anymore, either.
probably will be an older model that isnt sold anymore by samsung.
Not possible in Third World Countries :(
Are you sure you're not thinking of custom Android ROMs like LineageOS or /e/OS?
Because there are ROMs like Ubuntu Touch, but they're less developed than the other Android ROMs.
For reference, ive tried /e/OS, LineageOS and DivestOS (RIP).
So far I felt like /e/OS was the most polished.
Your right. Thats what I meant. Ill edit the comment.
Neat.
I'll also add: after DivestOS died, I got a Pixel to run GrapheneOS.
So I've tried that too, and it's the best by far.
The reason for disliking LineageOS is its dependence on Aurora Store (Google Play mirror).
Maybe it has gotten better over the past year, but it was always quite buggy. Some apps wouldn't install from Aurora, others weren't found, it was a pain in the ass.
/e/OS uses a different app store (which is also a mirror) but tends to work much better.
Are we already nostalgic for analog oligarchy?
I mean… it's hilarious that people still use Chrome when it has been a known back actor for years and years. Firefox is an excellent option and the more people that use it, the more it encourages companies to keep supporting open web standards.
Likewise, if you set an iPhone to use Advanced Data Protection, it's probably quite a bit more secure from intrusion than a similar Android phone. (And definitely more secure from subpoena.)
i abandoned it ever since they say they slow down incognito mode, and prevent the liberal use of adblockers, or extensions.
Likewise, if you set an iPhone to use Advanced Data Protection.
You can pretend your iPhone isn't owned by a corporation that just swore fealty to the current regime, but until its running a custom ROM it isn't fucking yours.
Only phone that comes your own from factory I'd maybe the pinephone. Otherwise, get a pixel, rip out the factory OS install, and throw Graphen OS on it.
Both Android AND iOS have taken code from Graphene and used it to secure their codebases. Its probably one of, if not the most secure OS available to the average person today.
Literally do not
Do not get a pinephone, whatever you do. I have owned both a PP and PPP and they are just ass. Pine64 is relying on the work of one single developer who does pretty much all the hardware support stuff and that in their free time. Development is slow, battery life is terrible, the hardware is trash and quality control is a mess.
I tried really hard to like them, gave them every benefit of the doubt, but no luck.
Don't bother. Get literally any non-pine phone with PMOS support
People voted for this with their wallets.
As an iPhone guy, I know we already have it like that, and our keyboard has always sucked (and none of the third party keyboards help, they all suck compared to Gboard on Android), but while we dread the day that Apple becomes a data broker like Google... that day is not here yet.
I have bad news for you: they already sell your information to advertisers.
But the threat of Apple turning on its customers isn't limited to China. While the company has been unwilling to spy on its users on behalf of the US government, it's proven more than willing to compromise its worldwide users' privacy to pad its own profits. Remember when Apple let its users opt out of Facebook surveillance with one click? At the very same time, Apple was spinning up its own commercial surveillance program, spying on Ios customers, gathering the very same data as Facebook, and for the very same purpose: to target ads. When it came to its own surveillance, Apple completely ignored its customers' explicit refusal to consent to spying, spied on them anyway, and lied about it.
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The infuriating part of the Google enshittification process is that there is absolutely nothing the user can do about it.
Literally the only thing that motivates Google is profit. Controlling side-loaded apps will almost certainly boost their profits by a infinitesimal fraction of a percent, therefore it will be done. Even if consumer uproar causes Google to back down in the short term, they'll simply implement this a few months later. Late-stage Capitalism sucks.
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