I hate, with a burning passion, the term "biological sex".
We have frankly, no fucking clue how our genetics and sex are intertwined.
We used to think it was "just chromosomes", but then we discovered "biological men" with double-X, or double-X and a Y, or vice-versa.
Or intersex individuals.
Then, we also got to consider that, say, a "biological woman" can transition to a "transgender man", which renders no change to their genes, just hormone levels, and they see physical development, voice deepening, hair growth, etc, just like a "biological man", or vice-versa.
In conclusion, "biological sex" is just another gross simplification created by people who's minds are so pathetic they can't comprehend reality and so choose to live by mantra founded in disproven pseudo-sciences, religion, and other excuses to avoid critical thinking, and then put themselves in positions of power.
Doesn’t sound to me like you know the difference between sex and gender. We do have a pretty solid idea of how genetics and sex are intertwined, including intersex conditions. Gender is a whole different thing.
You're mostly correct, tho the bit about genetics (+++) and sex is a bellcurve meme... There's tons we don't know and a lot of it is a giant interconnected mesh of incredibly complex relationship we barely grasp with very little casual data, and just a tiny bit of epidemiological inference that we can almost try to reason from.
Can you explain further? I’m a biochemist / medical lab scientist, and between my studies in genetics, human sexuality, and endocrinology, it seems pretty well figured out. Between “normal” X/Y chromosomes, various chromosomal abnormalities (X, XXX, XXY, XYY, etc), and mutations like androgen insensitivity syndrome it seems there is significant causal data. Not sure if they’ve studied these with knockout mice but it’s well beyond inference at this point.
I’m not sealioning here, it has been like a decade since I was actively learning this stuff and I’m sure there have been more discoveries. In general though it seems like we know the genetics, we know the hormones and receptors involved, the developmental process and various maladies are known, etc.
That isn't even a reliable indicator, and if it comes up, it is a discussion between the patient and the doctor and no one else. We have the language to be specific. Besides, doctors don't even know what to do with trans people regardless of gender or surgeries because all medical research on the topic has been blocked, erased, or burned by knuckledraggers
(MTF) When I go to doctors I have to explain to them that if they run my bloodwork as Male, every single damn metric on it is going to be flashing bright red. When it's run as Female, I can get actual data out of it. Also guess who you go to if you have titty problems.
I've yet to have any single interaction with a doctor where knowing I was born with a penis has been helpful beyond not having to ask questions like "might you be pregnant?", but so many flags in medical paperwork that just result from them mislabeling me as a male.
You're thinking of gender, sex is scientifically determinable.
I totally understand what you’re saying, but if you take gender out of it and just think about humans as any other animal, you could classify animals with penises and animals with vaginas separately especially if you’re breeding them. The AI overlords won’t care when they’re breeding us.
EDIT: two types of genitalia instead of just penis and vagina. And not all but many animals.
Here's the thing though, pretty much everything you just said is wrong. It's not that simple if you think of humans as any other animal. Here's a video link that is pretty long, but dives fairly deep into this topic that is massive from a scientific point of view.
Woah. I don’t have an hour and a half to dissect all the ways an animal with a penis and an animal with a vagina may not fit the standard classifications of male and female. Not discrediting that there are so many different life forms out there that can’t possibly just be two categories, but you also can’t say that “pretty much everything I said is wrong.” If I wanna breed dogs, I’m gonna need two types of genitalia. Elephants? Same. Salmon? Ducks? Lots of animals can be classified in that way. Not all their characteristics, but their reproductive traits for sure.
That's a shit video. Here's a deconstruction:
I’m not entirely sure what point you’re making, when sex reassignment surgery exists.
Not all trans people get it, sure, but many trans men have dicks and many trans women have vaginas. These usually align cosmetically but will have functional differences to their cis counterparts. Where would you crudely sort such people?
There’s also genital nullification surgery (think Barbie doll - nothing at all).
All good. I’m referring to the comment that I replied to stating that they don’t like the term “biological sex.” Not saying that trans people should be bucketed into being men or women based on their goodies. I’m saying that biologically, across many animals, specifically mammals, we can say something has this kind of genitalia or that. Call it male or female. Call it bapu and beepo. It’s a biological difference that can be classified along with other traits.
I don’t like it by association, because most of the time I hear it used by intolerant people (like right wing assholes on the “news”). Sometimes, though, I hear it used without malice, presumably because people don’t know what else to say.
Pardon my ignorance, but what term would you suggest instead? Birth sex? Assigned sex? Something else?
I’m not the person you asked, but ‘assigned sex’ is fine. The common one is ‘assigned gender at birth’.
The common one is ‘assigned gender at birth’.
*assigned sex
gender is assigned at birth by society, sex is assigned at birth by biology
usually they match, but sometimes they dont (hard-to-detect intersex conditions (which are never noticed), easy-to-detect intersex conditions (that get you mutilated))
I hate, with a burning passion, the term "biological sex".
For anyone else questioning topics like this, here's a fairly lengthy but great video on the topic.
That’s a shit video. Here’s a deconstruction:
Colin M. Wright, the author of the book you linked, is an "anti-transgender activist". Here is a nice collection of his bigotry.
Cis ppl showing they're not ready to hear this yet
Ok, so what about those that produce no gametes? What about those that produce both kinds?
Humans that don't produce gametes still have bodies organized around producing either sperm or ova. Their bodies still contain sexed structures. An example in other species is worker bees, which are sterile females. How do we know they're female? Because of the sexed structures in their bodies! Even though they don't produce gametes, they have structures in their bodies that are required for producing gametes of one type, and not used in the production of the other type.
No humans have bodies organized around producing both types of gametes, because we are Gonochoric. Other animals do have body plans organized around producing both types of gametes, such as in Androdioecy. Those species give a good example of what humans are not.
The definition of sex is simple. It's defined entirely as the gametes one's body is organized around producing. This is not an oversimplification. It is the reality that biologists have found in nature. It is settled science in the field of biology. Chromosomes are how sex is determined. Other species have completely different sex determination systems. Their sex is still defined by gametes.
Intersex is a confusing term. It has confused you. Some people are born with a Disorder of sex development. They are still either male or female.
Humans cannot change sex. Hormones can change some secondary sex characteristics. That does not change sex.
That's a juvenile understanding of sex, yes
As stated, that's the definition that the entire field of biology uses. If you think it's juvenile, take it up with them.
Perhaps, if all of the biologists are telling you you're wrong, you might just be wrong?
Biological sex is just that. It's your reproductive organs. Neat. Simple. Clean cut(or uncut) in most cases. Aberrations exist, but they're rare.
Gender is a psychology. It's an identity.
No it's not. It's a whole bunch of loosely correlated characteristics, many of which can be changed.
You need to get a grip it's stupid fucking shit like this that cost us the culture war.
Case in point. I never mentioned any of those groups, and I never discriminated trans people. I disagreed with this fucking idiot that's the extent of it. Thanks for "Trump: Birthright citizenship is a disgrace" thanks for that you stupid fucking cunts this is your fault.
Make all WC unisex. No physical change other than signage. Will this fix the problem? No, it will make.a royal fucking mess of it all and hopefully press politicians to reverse their trans phobic laws.
I agree. Removing that perk by making them all unisex is another thing that will make it a miserable experience for all. The idea is for it to be horrible enough for the TERFs to back off and the laws to change.
At work we had a male and female single-cubicle bathroom in reception. These are high-value bathrooms at work for dropping off the kids.
Somebody complained that there weren't any gender neutral bathrooms so they're both unisex now.
Now the men use the women's bathroom and the women don't use it anymore.
If it's single unit why would women not use it anymore...?
My work had gendered single unit bathrooms but the women's bathroom was farther away from the office space and since it was single room people of any gender just used the closer one regardless, and eventually they just swapped out the signs to gender neutral ones because of it's single stall who gives a shit? No one is going in there with you.
My highschool job was working at a sporting goods store. My closing duties each night were to clean the women's restroom and occasionally cover for another department to clean the men's room. I can tell you that the women's restroom was always grosser. Yeah, there would be more pee on the seats and floor in the men's room, but the rest of the place was far cleaner than the women's.
Oh, this type thinks they "can always tell".
Thing is, they can't. Trans people pass as cis pretty often, even to transphobes. And they're constantly 'transvestigating' people who are actually cis.
What this will actually accomplish is license to harass (and, yes, probably attempt to inspect the genitals of) anyone who's even a little bit gender non-conforming. It will mainly hurt cis women and cis men who, respectively, don't look feminine enough or don't look masculine enough. Functionally, it's just another way to enforce gender conformity.
It's hillarious when they can't see the difference and they either give confidently the wrong answer or internally panic lmao
In a past life, a super transphobic coworker asked me out a few times. He'd often go on rants about how women's spaces must be protected and whatnot. He never realized I was trans.
It's moments like that where I wish I could just tell him "hey I'm trans and you need to learn that we're not sexual predators like Fox News likes to claim", but staying quiet is an issue of personal safety. Trans visibility is a double edged sword that must be wielded delicately.
Can confirm, this happened to me three times in one night up in Ayr (I wasn't even stagging). Never going to that backwoods shithole again lol
There is a solution to all of this. Unitary WCs. Each has one toilet, one sink, at least one method for drying hands and at least one sanitary disposal for non-flushable items. Mirror optional. A toilet brush might also be a good idea.
Communal rooms should go the way of the dinosaur.
That way, anyone, regardless of persuasion, intent or comfort level, can use a toilet in peace. And if they want to invite someone else in for safety, so be it.
All the problems with this solution are excuses, and usually not very good ones.
I believe that communal bathrooms are cheaper to build and maintain, hence we still have them, not because anyone enjoys using them.
he
they
internet accounts are they unless otherwise specified
Especially on Lemmy, where the users seem to fall into one of two stereotypes: ultra-nerdy dudes, and trans/NB people.
Hell, over at !unixsocks@lemmy.blahaj.zone, they may even fit both groups.
Thankfully, there's an even better, easier, cheaper, and just solution to this as well
Negate the ruling and allow transgender people to use the correct bathroom that is congruent with their gender identity
better
just
it is neither of these
its way better than bathroom bans but defintely not better than unitary wcs
it divides us, is heteronormative, and still excludes some trans people (those for whose identity there is no bathroom for (nonbinary people))
unitary wcs eliminate creeps entirely, segregation provides a flimsy superficial defense against some of them
IOW, MYOB.
International Olympic washroom, misunderstood yelling ouch bowel
Communal rooms should go the way of the dinosaur.
obliterated by high velocity rocks?
Yes. The few times I've run into this has been great. I think people who are used to stalls initially feel weird when they hear about it but the toilets in this setup are enclosed with floor to ceiling walls and a door. It's so much more pleasant.
Maybe also a urinal in each? Too many times have I accidentally sat on stray drips from people unwilling to put up a toilet seat in unisex bathrooms.
I'm leaning towards no. If you're sat on the toilet in a small WC room, that urinal is going to be nearby and very close to face height. Also urinals are only really usable by half the population.
Sanitary wipes might be a better plan. Even better if they can be made reusable, but that could be too much to hope for what with the need for yet another bin, and the propensity for confused people to put things in the wrong one.
Students already get up to mischief in the shared bathrooms at my college library. Sometimes their "intent" runs contrary to the mission of the college--taking illegal drugs, setting off the fire alarm, making a giant mess with toilet paper everywhere.
A minor lack of privacy (private stalls, shared sinks) can help prevent bigger issues. If someone has a medical emergency (OD, for example) there's a chance someone notices.
The problem with that is not the students, or the layout, communal or otherwise, but the unwillingness of the institution to pay a toilet attendant.
We're in a budget crunch. Last I checked there was an unwillingness to pay for more than 1 custodian. The restrooms get dire.
edit: we do have 2 non-staff ungendered single seater restrooms, but I can't see anyone approving retrofitting the existing multi-stall restrooms in a way that costs money, arguably decreases safety, and increases pressure on custodial staff.
The attendant doesn't have to be a custodian. The member of staff with the office closest to each bathroom is now responsible for at least checking that bathroom once an hour. It's a budget crunch. Everyone has to do their part!
And if that doesn't fix the budget crunch within a week or two, the bathrooms are now being checked.
single sex toilets must be forever prohibited from existing, says actual equality and human rights
Why?
Just have a bunch of single stalls and sinks. Why do we need gendered bathrooms?
I'm there to take a shit. I don't care if a woman is washing her hands.
Not necessarily in the defense of single sex toilets, but I imagine not all men are gentle, and women (maybe even anyone else) would choose not to get peeked at from above by a nasty weirdo. I know, I know, not like only one gender could do it, but if I had to find a reason why one would want to have single sex toilets, this would be the reason that makes the most sense to me.
Or, you know, people being religious fanatics stuck in the 18th century, but who would be like that in 2026? /s
That's just a consequence of shitty bathroom design. In civilized places, bathroom stalls have actual walls and doors that go to the floor and ceiling.
Eeeh, first one may not be that removed from actual risk. If we assume 1/10 of population is perverted, then cutting out hetero folks from perving on opposite sex is cutting that 1/10 to 1/100. So the chance some perv will actually go for it is lower. And this is a bigger issue for women than men, so makes sense to be watching out for that.
In USA that is, in EU we have full size stall doors and walls :|
People don't just wash hands in a bathroom sink. They wash their face, groom themselves, admire themselves, apply makeup, etc.
Also, why waste space with stalls, when you can use urinals instead? I don't want to wait outside a stall to take a piss.
The first thing you named everyone does so it doesnt need to be private.
The second thing is a urinal takes up a stall space so just have more stalls.
After being to places that do this, I can tell you it works fine.
Yeah! Justice for straight people! No longer shall we be forced to excuse ourselves in restaurants only to shamefully walk into the opposite gender bathroom to have sneaky restaurant sex with our partners! We want a bathroom where both men and women can walk in with their heads held high and then do unmentionable things to each other while their friends are waiting for desert to arrive!
Lmaooo... Best reply to my comment fr
What's that got to do with equality?
These people are suspiciously concerned with what's going on between other people's legs.
As far as I can tell the UK is the only country in the whole of Europe following America down this specific insane moral and political rabbit-hole.
It's like they tried to get into the XXI century, failed and decided to go back to their time of greatness, the Victorian Era.
They do have a prominent billionaire who is bribing anyone to take up her anti-trans positions.
You're a TERF, Harry
ah yes the rest of Europe is super tolerant against trans people. LOL. Russia has a laws that forbids gender reassignment surgery. And they have a law that bans LGBTQ "propaganda" basically write or film something positive or even neutral information about the LGBTQ will get you in jail. Hungary and Poland haven't been very friendly against queers in the last decade. Almost every right wing party in Europe that has "family values" on their agenda wants to see trans people gone.
Hungary and Poland both just emerged from their very own far-right populist period.
Meanwhile Britain supposedly did too and then elected a supposedly "center" - "left" government and instead of it getting better this shit just got worse. Oh, and the Brexiter Tories were apparently not Right-wing enough for a large fraction of the population so Reform UK rose.
Even the "left" in Britain are nutters compared to all of Western, Northern and Southern Europe.
I'll give you Russia, though - it is indeed comparable to Britain in terms of having 19th century morals.
Following? Make no mistake, TERF island has been pioneering this. The American Right has been funding TERF groups there as a test bed. It’s spilling over into the former territories like NZ too - a few days ago the coalition government there voted through a first reading of a „definition of man and woman“ bill (bills go through three readings before becoming law)
Its interesting change. Considering companies has always been pro whatever is profitable. The question why this shift happened without any push back from companies and wealthy people. In fact most of these decisions seems to cost people more money.
Transgender rights are actually significantly varied across Europe and Central Asia
They're going to feel great because that'll give them another opportunity to harass transgender people.
They don't feel. They're not even human. They're animals.
So? They need to be oppressed. I think we should start talking a hell of a lot more about overtly stripping the rights from religious freaks and TERFs. Oppression is a tool of politics, and we've been unilaterally disarming ourselves for far too long.
We're currently in a one-sided war. The bigots can tirelessly work to strip the rights of everyone else, and they can sit comfortably knowing that no one will ever come after their rights and their liberties. After all, good liberals like yourself don't want to get their hands dirty, and they hem and haw and, cluck and peck at the ground, saying "wait, wait, we can't stoop to their level. They go low, we go high!" Then they maintain the moral high ground while the lives of vulnerable minorities are destroyed one piece at a time.
Fuck that. Here's an idea. Let's declare conservative churches as inappropriate for children. Kids shouldn't be exposed to the filth that's in the Bible after all. There's murder, bestiality, genocide, incest, and any number of disgusting things in that book. Maybe by law you should have to be 18 to read it. No more baptism for anyone under the age of 18. Hell, let's not even allow kids in churches until age 16.
Or here's an idea. Let's declare denying your kid gender-affirming care to be legally child abuse. Frankly, this isn't even a stretch. I want to see liberals pushing to take queer children out of the homes of religious bigots. There should be a form where kids can go online, out themselves as a queer kid living in a bigoted home, and have child protective services immediately come and find them a supportive place to live. Bigots don't deserve to be parents.
Or how about we pass a law that says trans people can sue cis people who make them uncomfortable in bathrooms. Do you harass a trans person or confront them about being in the "right" bathroom? That trans person should be able to sue you for an absurd some plus attorneys fees for a violation of their rights.
We need to start stripping absolutely every right we can from these animals. This is the only way we will ever see the right stop trying to take away everyone else's rights. Rights are meant to be a peace treaty - you let me live my life and I'll let you live yours. The problem is right now, conservatives are fucking over everyone else's lives, but no one is fucking with conservatives. I want them to feel the fear of their victims. Only then is there any hope of actually declaring a cease fire and ending this game of attacking rights of all sorts.
Is dehumanization a tool of oppression? You're fucking right it is. And we have some people that are in dire need of oppression. Conservative Christians love to masturbate about being "oppressed." It's about damn time they learned what real oppression felt like.
they are trying to create a legal context in which being transgender and doing normal things in the world is a crime and then they force trans people into the wrong prison where they can forcibly detransition trans people knowing that this will kill them 🫡
in america they have designated anyone “pro transgender” a terrorist and kansas, ohio, tennessee, texas, and indiana have or are creating trans registries of all the trans people
It's how it begins. Chip away until you can annihilate them
I get the womens rights angle but cis women have it pretty easy compared to trans women (and trans men).
Demanding an 'exclusive female place' is entitled and basically the cisfemale equivalent of white privilege. Especially when unisex facilities have existed for decades without incidence.
Pls tell me u aren't serious or real
I get the womens rights angle but cis women have it pretty easy compared to trans women (and trans men).
Pls tell me how ? How is it fair by exemple for women to have to compete against biological men in their field when they are de facto disadvantaged agains them ?
Demanding an ‘exclusive female place’ is entitled and basically the cisfemale equivalent of white privilege.
LMAO give me one white privilege and one woman privilege always amased how trans activist are misogynistic than incels
Especially when unisex facilities have existed for decades without incidence.
That s a lie. Every time a protected women space got open to trans women, biological women were abused
The genocide usually comes after the normalization of exclusion, and forcing them to out themselves, and arresting them if they don’t.
After that stuff, it’s armbands, and then “Take a train ride to this new work camp!”
We’re moving in that direction. That’s why we’re saying that word.
People thought the worries about Trump were overblown too, and look how that worked out. He bribed the Supreme Court into giving him immunity from the law. He’s turning the White House into a bunker. He started a war with a country with 90 million people. He started a trade war with every democratic country on earth. He lost the biggest oil shipping lane in the world. He can’t get it back without using nukes. The Epstein files are still more than half unreleased. Not a single man has been prosecuted for any crimes because of them. There is no plan to release the rest of the files. More victims have been named than perpetrators. This regime doesn’t JUST protect rich pedophiles and fraudsters, it also gives them pardons. Meanwhile he’s destroying our relationships with every free country on earth and giving favors to dictatorships. He openly glazes and admires places whose governments regularly brutalize innocent civilians.
If he just came out and told you straight up he’s a dictator and he won’t give up power and he wants to turn America into a dictatorship where rich people own and control everything and everyone else is literal slaves…
You’d say he was joking. Or that it was AI. Or that it was some kind of tactic to influence or manipulate one of our enemies. Or… whatever.
Your disregard for potential harm leads to him. It leads to people like him preying on your prideful ignorance and childish impatience, and using it to convince you to betray everything of value until you become an evil person without realizing it.
Just… stop. Look at a news source that they don’t want you to… for once. Ask your friends about what you found in it. See how they respond. See how you’ve become.
..........
You are overflowing stuff so much that u make legitimate critics towards trump woch they are a lot seem unjustified.
He’s turning the White House into a bunker
how many shot fired near the white house recently ?
He started a trade war with every democratic country on earth
Famous democratic country like china yeah
He can’t get it back without using nukes
Yeah totally not overblow like analyse ty ty
The Epstein files are still more than half unreleased
Released more that the precedent admin. But totally agree on it should be more but i can t help to notice it wasnt an issue before he became president a second time.
Meanwhile he’s destroying our relationships with every free country on earth and giving favors to dictatorships
.......... as an european u never were a good allie. U always worked toward your interest. Trump didnt change anything regarding that.
Just… stop. Look at a news source that they don’t want you to… for once. Ask your friends about what you found in it. See how they respond. See how you’ve become.
Yeah shit are bad. But look at what you did and became that for the majority of the country he seem the reasonable solution. He win that election in a landslide. Your refusal to take accountability or to take into account any criticism put him in power.
Like that subject trans genocide are you serisous fr rn ? Cite me one law that discriminate trans that isnt based on factual scientific evidence ? A trans women will always be biologicaly a men and that s something 80% of the pop agree.
If you are a real person and not a propaganda bot, you sure do act a lot like a propaganda bot.
I think you need to put down the Fox News and Joe Rogan experience. You’ve had too much already lol
Why are you trying to get into female-exclusive places?
Why the fuck do these perverts care so much about what people do in a bathroom? How fucking weird
A female colleague proclaims often loudly how disgusting she finds it to see a male colleague leave the unisex toilet at the office. I've asked her if those men are leaving a mess or what specifically was disgusting, and she says she just finds it gross that a man uses the same toilet.
I feel that the segregation is too engrained into our generation to move away from separated toilets. Honestly it's a miracle we no longer have segregated toilets by skin color in the South.
Terf island at it again.
This is going to make it so difficult to plan out businesses and buildings that everyone will end up with gender neutral bathrooms and spaces. It's my dream that all those lobby groups who think they're protecting women will have to shit next to every man, woman, femboy, adult baby, theydy, them, zem, furry and otherkin in the UK.
No, there’s already rules in place from the previous government which says that all new builds and buildings euch are changing their use must have separate, sex-segregated toilets, unless the building is physically too small for anything other than a single room with a single toilet and sink. You can have gender-neutral toilets as well but not instead
Extant businesses may. Your post mentioned planning out businesses and buildings. If there’s space for single-sex toilets then under current legislation it would be illegal not to have them. You can thank the Tories for that. Badenoch even explicitly said that it was done to target trans people, although obviously not in quite those words
being back Roman Shittatoriums I'll bring the communal sponge
Not allowed. I’ll copy from another post:
No, there’s already rules in place from the previous government which says that all new builds and buildings euch are changing their use must have separate, sex-segregated toilets, unless the building is physically too small for anything other than a single room with a single toilet and sink. You can have gender-neutral toilets as well but not instead
I know, right? This government has chosen to go “well, if the Supreme Court says we have to discriminate against trans people, then i guess we do “, rather than ” if the law can be interpreted in that way then it’s obviously wrong or unclear. We have a large majority and a progressive core of voters, let’s change the law “
It’s like come on guys, this is exactly the strength of the UK NOT having a written constitution - you can change the law and thereby change the constitution
So make the toilets as outlined above, but on the last two doors in the row mark one male and one female.
Yeah. The minority of loud stupid/paid people who care about this really are the ones who should be inconvenienced. If you want a gendered bathroom then there's an outbuilding you can use. It's on one plot so technically we're still within code.
I’m far from an expert on this, but my understanding is that that could work, but it could also fall foul of other building regs, specifically the H&S regulations of 1992, which talk about toilets being suitable and sufficient
In my inexpert opinion it’d be enough of a grey area that you could challenge it in court if you were told it wasn’t allowed. In practical terms, no company is likely to do this unless they were specifically trying to take it to court to challenge the law or bring it more public agenda
But it’s s good idea and I’d support any company that tried it
All single toilets are sex-segregated if you enter alone and close the door.
Your sex is on one side of the door, all other sexes are on the other.
The issue only happens when you attempt to write a sign that predicts the sex, or if more people have to take a shit together in the same room.
As the law stands at the moment, if you’re building a new non-domestic building or changing the function of an existing building and you have three toilets, each of which is a single room containing one individual toilet and a sink and which can be locked from the inside, then cannot all be accessible to everybody. One must be exclusively for women and one for men. And, as per the new guidence, which one someone can use is solely to be determined by what gender they were assigned at birth
Yes, it’s incredibly stupid, but that’s what the law currently says
I thought that toilets were a primarily a public health concern. If they are not provided then unfortunate things start happening in secluded corners.
Isn't that the goal here? Exclude people from toilets. They have to pee elsewhere. Arrest them for public urination or "indecent exposure". Maybe put them on some kind of sex offender list like the Americans are doing for people caught urinating in public. Spread fear about "trans sex offenders".
I’m sure you are right. There is a lot of weirdness around this. No one argues that gay people can’t use toilets (at least not yet). Picking on trans people is really pretty much that, misplaced prejudice.
That sounds eerily plausible 😥
Toilet have a cloaca as long as they haven’t been neutered. To check the gender, slip your arm up the P-trap and feel for the glands. You’ll know what a dick feels like.
Most domesticated toilets are neutered at birth to prevent overpopulation and damage to the local sewage ecosystems.
You ask it nicely
Didn't even know I was taking the fascist test. In that case I'd say barge in and pull the toilet's pants down to check.
Did we ever need them?
It's because of this people think girls don't poop lol
No, we never needed gendered restrooms. IIRC it was established out of an abundance of caution when women started entering the general workforce in WWI. Men were concerned that women may need a place to rest away from men at work. It turns out women are fine and just need a stall to shit equal to everyone else.
In ww1 the men's toilets consisted of a long urinal and a stall at the end to shit in. Society at the time thought it wasn't appropriate for women to walk past a load of men with their dicks out to get to the one facility they could use.
Times are different now, though.
Because peeing and defecating are kinda private activities. One involves the anus, the other involves genitalia. I mean I'm sure a woman wouldn't want to go into a restroom and see guys with their dicks out peeing in urinals?
This seems like the obvious solution. An area for stand-up wees. An area for sit-down wees and poos. Everyone can wash their hands together in an open area.
No need to bring gender into expelling waste. Wouldn't be surprised to find modern toilets were invented by the Victorians so men wouldn't have to find out that women also shit.
women also shit.
THEY WHAT?
I'm a woman. I can confirm it's true
You should be ashamed of yourself madam
Fuck, I'll inform the press
I'm having an argument with idiots here in Australia trying to "protect women". No joke, most of them are toxic blokes who are trying to be masculine. I even got told by one I'm not a man, because I should be protecting women.
In another thread, there was a guy who was posting back and forth telling me I was a guy dictating things.. whilst, I didn't even comment what should be done. I just commented that climbing gyms are running womxn nights for years without issue and it's a non issue is causing some of them to go nuts
In fact, they solved the dilemma entirely by just going unisex (and, the toilet cubicles are full length and mostly soundproof it feels like, so they're actually awesome
I’m done living in this shithole.
Not that I ever would, but if I went into the women’s they’d (rightly) tell me to fuck off or report me to staff.
Endless love to all trans people I've got your back ❤️ 💙 💜 💖 💗
equality and human rights commission discussing bathrooms is an insult to all people whose human rights is to live under slavery, lawless war zones, traffickings, torture, aprthied, ethnic cleansing, and dictatorships that oppress and jail dissidents indifinitely without trails.
The EHRC is a government commission in the United Kingdom.
Is anyone going to comment on the AI slop image used by the guardian?
You're just wheeshting.
That probably isn't AI, unfortunately. Wheesht is a Scottish word meaning to shut up.
Surely the legal challenge against this is already started?
The supreme court didnt actually mention toilets, and said changing rooms may work ( if they have privacy rooms)
I hope all people who have a problem with trans LGBTQ people die peacefully in their sleep. Tonight.
I once heard one gender critical person who is against excluding Transgender people from toilets cause they need to pee too. He told he would be confused saying transgender person with passing(MTF) in male toilet. He also have a unsual idea of Passing Licences that in his opinion this licence should require the surgery. I don't have contact with any transgender person who had a surgery, but some of these that I know and don't have surgery have 100% passing. Imo stupid idea. Some gender critical people want to ban the surgery.
wheesht?
Did I read it wrong or is all that is required to meet guidelines to implement gender neutral washrooms accrossed the board? I feel like this would have the opposite effect that the anti-trans movement wanted and I am here for it.
According to a commentator, TERFs lobbied UK Gov to stop companies from building gender neutral toilets
The full comment was this:
The TERFs successfully lobbied the previous government to make exclusively gender neutral toilets illegal under Part T of the building code. Because exclusively gender neutral toilets don't discriminate against anybody and would therefore be acceptable to trans people and if the TERFs went dishonest far-right cranks, it would have presumably been on with them too, and it would have ended the culture war. That's why they had them banned, because it wasn't about toilets, changing rooms or sports, it was about keeping the culture war going to make life impossible for trans people.
So this is not just a clerical ramification, but a genocidal move. See my other comment.
Do you want people to pee on the bathroom doors? Because that's how you get people to pee on bathroom doors.
For all the talking heads still "asking questions" and demonstrating absolute ignorance, if not bad faith, after all these years, here are some very tangible takes as to why bathroom bans means genocide.
If people are to use exclusively the restrooms that match their assigned at birth sex, then all people must be the sex that they are perceived to be. Trans advocates were not paranoid enough to imagine that the right wants to wipe trans people out of public life to such a degree, that no ambiguity about a person’s sex can further be possible, except for those “extremely rare genetic accidents” Ben Shapiro keeps talking about. Public erasure, however, of transgender and gender-nonconforming people amounts to the enforcement of cisgenderism by a state that defines sex as a natural binary with no exceptions, and no behavioral, nor performative, nor psychological deviations from the norm. (From my previous essay on this.)
The rest of this post comes from the real experts on the topic, the Lemkin institute for genocide prevention.
1
Statement on the Genocidal Nature of the Gender Critical Movement’s Ideology and Practice
Genocidal ideologies are ideologies that deny or seek to erase the existence of a specific group because of the supposed threat it poses to the holders of the ideology.
Focusing primarily on the imagined threat posed by transgender women, gender critical ideologues believe that transgender women are in fact men who are seeking to dominate cisgender women (women whose sense of self corresponds with their birth sex) by impersonating them and thereby gaining access to women’s bathrooms, women’s locker rooms, women’s sports teams, and other women’s spaces.
Transgender women are represented as stealth border crossers who seek to defile the purity of cisgender women, much as Tutsi women were viewed in Hutu Power ideology and Jewish men in Nazi antisemitism.
Like the religious targets of genocidal violence, trans people are often described as somehow polluted, sinful, or against God.
A fundamentalist gender binary was a key feature of Nazi racial politics and genocide.
2
Red Flag Alert on Anti-Trans and Intersex Rights in the UK
Since the ruling, “birth sex,” “biological sex,” and “natal sex” have all been used interchangeably, ignoring the multiple relevant components of biological sex and the existence of intersex people. Analysts immediately warned that the decision could be used to render single sex spaces off limits for trans people, including hospital wards, sports, and domestic violence shelters. For a group especially vulnerable to domestic violence, exclusion from specialised shelters is nothing short of cruel and could, in some cases, prove a death sentence. Transgender and intersex people may find themselves excluded not only from spaces of their current sex but also from spaces for their sex assigned at birth. Trans men would find themselves excluded from both male spaces on the basis of their assigned sex at birth, and female spaces if they are deemed to look too much like men.
The EHRC has, in the past few years, seemed to become a lobby group for erasing the rights of intersex and trans people on the basis of gender critical views. This has been explicitly confirmed by leader of the UK’s Official Opposition Kemi Badenoch. Following the UKSC Ruling, the EHRC erased decades of established practice protecting transgender and intersex people by taking a restrictive interpretation of the ruling in their interim guidance and refusing to consider the welfare of intersex or transgender people. The guidance dictates that anyone who is not binarily male or female is excluded from single sex spaces, ranging from public toilets to groups such as a single-gender choir. This interim guidance has been noted by the Good Law Project to be either wrong in law or a breach of human rights.
Those who have transitioned will be forced to choose between being someone who is either excluded from society or who lives a criminalised life shrouded in secrecy. If the law in the UK makes people living beyond sex and gender binaries second-class citizens, it will also lay the groundwork for increased genital mutilation of intersex infants and conversion therapy of transgender people.
All of the actions described above fit neatly into the 9th Pattern of Genocide: “Denial and/or Prevention of Identity.” As we have repeatedly stated over the years, genocide does not only manifest in the killing of an entire group. In the case of trans and intersex people, genocide is often perpetrated by making it impossible for individuals to exist as their true selves.
3
Red Flag Alert for Genocide - USA
An apparently committed transphobe like Knowles may believe that transgender people are not real and are instead misled by something called “transgenderism,” so that by eradicating “transgenderism” he would not be eradicating a real identity. To that line of thought we can only note that the arrogance of determining which identities are real and not real, and therefore which identities can be slated for elimination, is already a giant step in the direction of genocide. Moreover, once an identity is determined to be illegitimate, criminal, and threatening, the killing of people with that identity is never far behind.
The Lemkin Institute reminds American voters and legislators that “the gender critical movement is a totalitarian and genocidal social force that targets not just transgender people, but also all the institutions of democracy that protect individual and collective human rights,”
Anti-trans legislation, anti-trans organizations, and the anti-trans movement must be fought forcefully in the name of saving lives as well as securing democratic institutions from the accelerating threat of fascism in the United States.
4
Red Flag Alert 2 for the Anti-Trans Agenda of the Trump Administration in the United States
The anti-trans movement in the US has made it clear that it will not stop at banning gender affirming care for children. Emboldened by this Supreme Court decision, they will continue their attempts to restrict gender affirming care for adults as well. Furthermore, they will ramp up their attempts to erase trans identity through various non-medical policies, including bathroom bans, bans on conversations related to gender in schools, preventing schools and workplaces from using pronouns or names that don’t align with a person’s sex at birth, banning trans athletes from competition, and criminalizing dressing as a gender other than the one assigned at birth.
The Lemkin Institute reminds people that the genocidal process involves far more than just mass murder. Most genocidal processes involve complex policies aimed at actively and systematically obstructing an identity from manifesting itself within the social world through laws, decrees, speech acts, and practices enacted by groups in power. As a result of these acts, people within a threatened community cannot live publicly as who they are and community identity development becomes impossible.
Given that leaders in the anti-trans movement view trans people as internal enemies and U.S. President Donald Trump has identified them a national security threat, the recent Supreme Court decision can be seen as part of a much larger internal cleansing operation aimed at creating a white, heterosexual, cisgender ethnostate
I think we need to create a government works program to hire toilet patrol enforcement, and require everyone to present their original birth certificates and IDs prior to pissing in any toilet - private or public! /s
My beard always gets me funny looks when I use the ladies' room.
Mom?
Do being a bunch of removed qualify them as being transgender too?
It's so obvious that so many here didn't even read the article.
This really isn't about toilets as much as locker rooms. Where each person must go to the gendered locker room for their biological sex. Unless there is an alternative. Such as a "trans locker room"
The whole toilet part is adressed in that most businesses will just remove the symbol for M/F on single stalls and call it a day. And most have a handicap friendly stall, which already is gender neutral.
This is more of an issue for places like hospital's that are required to have gendered spaces.
But the toilets are a part of it. Hence the thread. You want to do some gender segregation shit for locker rooms? Fine I guess. But the toilets are a part of this. Expecting people to ignore that is really fucking silly.
But the long-awaited guidance also says that businesses and service providers have to offer practical alternatives such as gender-neutral toilets for people who do not wish to use services for their biological sex.
Everyone will have a bathroom they can use. Businesses are required to ensure this. So what's the problem?
Single-sex toilets and changing rooms in England, Wales and Scotland must exclude transgender men and women
That's the problem. It's legislation aimed at the erasure of trans men and women. It feeds into the deep transphobic fearmongering that the terfs do. It legitimizes the idea that trans men and women are predators waiting to pounce in the toilet of their proper gender. And that's about as many words as I'm willing to waste on this. You seem to have been in this space long enough to have picked up on these ideas, and you spouting nonsense AKIN (emphasis added so you can't ignore the word AKIN that I just wrote) to "but gay men can marry women, so we already have marriage equality" is just you being obtuse.
And if you're capable of reading just a little bit more than the first headline
according to a new code of practice from the equalities watchdog.
That's not what the legislation says. How are you still unable to comprehend this after i quoted the actual court ruling to you?
The court literally ruled that there MUST be a practical alternative to those that do not wish to use the bathroom designated for their biological sex.
That's not banning people from bathrooms.
I'm here for the shitstorm
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I guess I’m naive to hope that a business would rather convert existing facilities to two multi-sex bathrooms rather than have to build and give up existing space to a third bathroom.
save