yeah I'm forever voting blue no matter who. The republican candidate will always be a fascist. It will never end with Trump. It's going to be fascist vs not fascist blue vote and I will eat whatever shit the blue vote shits out. More cops? I'm all for it, not a fascist dictator. Support Israel? Fine with me, not a fascist dictator. It sucks but that's just America now for the next thousand or so years, fascism or something else. Better hope the something else isn't closer to fascism than before or else you're fucked.
HauntedCupcake 29 points 2 years ago
If the Dems keep winning the Republicans will have to slide left. It happened in the UK with Labour (unfortunately in the opposite direction).
When that happens, and Trump is not literally attempting to end democracy using project 2025, the plan of strong-arming the dem candidate into being more left is plenty feasible, and the risks are less dire.
SuddenDownpour 8 points 2 years ago
It happened in the UK with Labour (unfortunately in the opposite direction)
This happened after Labour's entrenched power groups vigorously sabotaged Corbyn. Corbyn committed a somewhat serious blunder during Brexit, but he still had Labour well in the direction of defeating the Tories, and that might have happened earlier if his most spiteful opponents hadn't been inside his own party.
nondescripthandle 3 points 2 years ago
Thats not going to happen. The small handful of swing states will dictate a pattern of both parties steadily and we'll just keep going lower. Im sorry but there's zero chance the US doesn't elect enough republicans for them to be forced to change policy. They're making gains.
HauntedCupcake 6 points 2 years ago
Maybe I'm just risk averse, but handing your country over to a fascist dictator sounds like the wrong solution.
I'm not saying to stop pressuring Biden in other ways, just not the borderline suicidal ones
skulbuny 1 point 2 years ago
Ah yes, that time several years ago when the dems won last election, the republicans responded by "sliding left". When the dems win 2024 the republicans will also be very civilized and non violent and slide even further left. Non-whites and LGBT people everywhere in America will be safer the night Joe Biden is elected than the night before, you heard it here from HauntedCupcake first!
HauntedCupcake 5 points 2 years ago
You mostly don't see it because they win inconsistently by a narrow margin. It would totally happen if the republicans weren't so popular and the Dems kept winning. Hence the hypothetical.
The main issue is convincing the populace, but my point is more that the US has a way out of fascism, the public just need to recognise and want it
ceasarlegsvin -79 points 2 years ago
You acknowledge that you're voting for a slightly slower descent into fascism but that you'll continue to do so?
TachyonTele 127 points 2 years ago
As opposed to a faster descent? Yes absolutely.
rockSlayer -40 points 2 years ago
So your solution to avoiding fascism is to never lose an election?
HelixDab2 20 points 2 years ago
Anyone that wants to accelerate things has never lived in the kind of world that they're advocating for.
I had a teacher in school that was a Bosnian Muslim during the genocide of the Balkan wars. She, her older brother, and her mom made it out. I never heard her talk about her dad, so I don't think that he did. She and her older brother would practice their drawing by the light of burning tires. The eventually escaped to England, and then got asylum in the US.
That's what we're trying to avoid.
MossyFeathers 15 points 2 years ago
I wonder how many accelerationists around here are fascists/explodingheads users. Fascists don't fear the prospect of pretending to be something they aren't if it means furthering their agenda.
They're not afraid of posing as, say, a disenfranchised, discouraged and disillusioned left-winger who believes both sides are bad and there's no future except revolution.
They're not afraid to post about how "Genocide Joe" is funding genocide in Gaza while neglecting to point out how "Totalitarian Trump" would send B-52s to carpet bomb Gaza and the West Bank until nothing is left.
They're not afraid to point out how red states are still succeeding in trampling over LGBT rights under Biden while also ignoring how Trump would almost certainly push for that nation-wide.
They'll cry about our current supreme court justices while ignoring that Trump was the one who put those justices in power to begin with.
To be clear, I think the US is pretty far from saving and that it'll take a miracle to save this country from ruin. However, I'd rather see the country collapse slowly and in a relatively controlled manner that gives people time to prepare for its demise; while also giving people time to attempt to patch and fix the holes.
Revolution is high risk, high reward; if the left-wing wins, then you might get the socialist utopia you've always dreamed of. However, what if the right-wing wins? Yanno, the people with the majority of privately owned guns in the US. What if they win?
A Trump presidency means your leftist revolution against a fascist government will almost certainly be opposed by both rednecks and the US military.
However, if the fascists revolt during a Biden presidency, then the military will likely be backing you.
In the event of armed revolution, the president, whether it's Biden or Trump, will use the military to protect and reinforce their power. With Trump, opposition to his power will be coming from the left, so that's who the military will target. With Biden, the opposition will come from the right, and so the military will target them instead.
Of course, that doesn't mean you'll get the leftist utopia you've always dreamed, but at least you'll remove a lot of fascists from the equation. Removing those fascists means it'll be easier for the country to swing to the left and stay there. It won't happen overnight, but the result would likely be a government far more stable than if you tried to burn everything down and start over from scratch.
The reason why I say all this is because I feel that we are closing in on a revolution. Something is about to snap, and it will happen either during the elections or soon after. As such, you really, really don't want Trump, because Trump means you'll be fighting against the biggest, most well-funded and technologically equipped military in the world.
The air is tense and electric, filled with gasoline fumes and heated by our exhaust. The masses are shuffling to and from their workplaces, burned-out and overworked. They are struggling to afford rent, afford food, afford sleep and water. Static electricity is building on their shuffling bodies, and soon a spark will leap from an outstretched finger, igniting the air and bathing the US in fire.
I hope I'm wrong.
SwingingTheLamp -3 points 2 years ago
I would agree with you, but who's working on fixing things? It's looking close this time, and the historical pattern is that the Presidency flips parties when an incumbent can't run. What's the plan so we can ensure that a GQP authoritarian doesn't win in 2028? This was the talking point in 2020, and very little happened; Biden's AG even waited almost 3 years to appoint a special counsel, only after being buffaloed into it by the House January 6th committee, virtually ensuring that there trial will be delayed until after the election. And there's still no action whatsoever to hold Bush administration officials accountable.
Tryptaminev -11 points 2 years ago
You know what is definitely not fixing it? Reassuring the Dems at every step that they will have your vote no matter what, as long as they are only slightly better than the Reps. Actually it is directly encouraging them to be at their possible worst.
Think of politicians as children and you as their parent. Do you think "reaffirm your child that no matter what it does, it will always get its favorite dessert" is a good parenting strategy? You raise egocentric psychopaths this way and this is exactly what you are getting as politicians.
ceasarlegsvin -19 points 2 years ago
I'm not noticing any part of "I'll accept anything" that's particularly conducive to fixing things
bstix 14 points 2 years ago
It's more than yes/no to fascism.
In a democratic political party you can influence the politics democratically. In a fascist party: Not possible.
The country does not need to hit rock bottom before it can improve. It can be changed democratically from within if you allow it to by voting for anything but the party that will take away that possibility.
ceasarlegsvin -7 points 2 years ago
Why would the democratic party listen to anything you have to say if they know you'll vote for them regardless?
norbert 9 points 2 years ago
You're just an accelerationist. Fatalism, nihilism, apathy, hopeless, etc aren't anything new, most of us disagree with you. I wonder if your outlook would improve if you got therapy or if you had a little skin in the game and stood to lose something.
ceasarlegsvin -8 points 2 years ago
Yes the point of my comment was that I want fascism faster well done
Donkter 6 points 2 years ago
Assuming you're not voting...
Do you acknowledge that you're voting for a coin toss between a slower descent or a faster descent into fascism? Averaging out to you being in favor of an even faster descent into fascism than the person you replied to?
ceasarlegsvin -11 points 2 years ago
That's not what not voting is, no
Do you acknowledge that voting for a candidate enacting bad policies is voting for those bad policies
MicrondeMMMMMMM 1 point 2 years ago
So what do you suppose we do? Start a revolution against the biggest military on earth? I believe America needs to stop having a two party system, this way there is more chance someone like Bernie gets elected. But alas who will vote for them...
Tryptaminev -1 points 2 years ago
Tell Biden to either stop the bullshit or not get your vote and mean it, for instance by backing it up with demonstrations.
skulbuny -3 points 2 years ago
So what if voting blue will end up with innocent people dying? Their sacrifice for my freedom will not go without honor. I will enshrine their lives with a statue commemorating their bravery in the fight for my freedom. The lives of innocent trans people, black people, and Palestinian children is a steep cost but it's one I'm willing to spend for me to go to Starbucks and get a latte for $9. Who's to say my life is worth more than theirs? Well Joe Biden made that determination for us, so I believe that's right! I'm glad it's a bunch of random black and brown people getting blown to bits for my right to vote, not me!
agamemnonymous 3 points 2 years ago
Because one stands a chance of winning, the other does not.
corsicanguppy 91 points 2 years ago path: 0 10251834, hotness: undefined, score: 91, children: 73
pearsaltchocolatebar 17 points 2 years ago
Says the person who doesn't understand how the US election system works.
turtletracks 12 points 2 years ago
It's unfortunately a bipartisan system with the shitty electoral system that needs reformation. It's barely a democracy, but there is a clear option out of the two, and for now, ensuring Trump is not president again is a step in a better direction.
TonyTonyChopper -50 points 2 years ago
🤢 I'd rather vote green
Gestrid -9 points 2 years ago
The Green Party is a thing in America.
Republican and Democrat are the two biggest parties by a large margin, but a few other smaller parties exist. Plus, some people run as an Independent. They're not affiliated with any party at all.
Edit: I never meant to imply the other parties had any chance at winning an election in a meaningful way, which is what these replies seem to think I was saying. (They don't have a chance, honestly.) But other parties do exist, including a party in which you can "vote green". That is all I'm saying.
absentbird 18 points 2 years ago
In a first past the post system of districts with single representative candidates, it almost always resolves to two viable parties. That's the way it's been for basically all of American history.
The parties can change, but the shape of the system remains constant: a vote is only effective when cast for the largest opponent of your least desired candidate. It's unintuitive and discouraging.
The parliamentary systems used in much of Europe, for all their flaws, do allow for more robust and diverse representation.
Gradually_Adjusting 8 points 2 years ago
Greens in America aren't in a position to govern. Even if Stein got enough electoral votes through the work of 30-60 literal miracles, she'd be totally unable to govern effectively. You need a deep bench and more of a base in the other branches of government to form a party that can effect changes and run this country
MalachaiConstant 6 points 2 years ago
There is no viable third party without voting reform.
If you really want smaller parties to have any chance, go help the people within the democratic party who are trying to make that happen.
MisterFrog 5 points 2 years ago
I love how you exactly proved their point without realising. Please go look up the spoiler effect with first-past-the-post voting.
TonyTonyChopper -1 points 2 years ago
What are you smoking
papertowels 7 points 2 years ago
No, they're right but we live in a flawed democracy.
TheOakTree 4 points 2 years ago
I believe it's such a broken democracy that it doesn't qualify as a proper democracy.
So, tell me, how does third party voting or abstaining from voting help oust the government?
OneWomanCreamTeam 7 points 2 years ago
Why drive to a polling location to throw your vote away then?
TonyTonyChopper 1 point 2 years ago
1984
Nioxic 5 points 2 years ago
I think in my country that's called "Stemmespild"
which basically means wasted-vote.
if a political party wants to enter the parliament, they gotta get at least 2% of the votes. so if you vote for one of the very unpopular parties and they only get ~1.5% you've effectively wasted your vote completely (This is how it works in my country - of course things are different in the US)
logi 1 point 2 years ago
Things are even worse in the US. For president you need to get a plurality of the votes (more than any other candidate) nationally (let's ignore the EC for now) which means that any vote not for the two candidates who stand a chance is wasted.
But also in their congressional elections they set up the system so to get in you have to get a plurality in some district where only one representative will be sent each time (FPTP). So even if your party has 15% nationally, unless they can win a plurality in some districts, they won't get any representation.
Thats why 3rd parties are pure vote wasters in presidential elections and in Congress you only have a handful of independent reps who somehow win their districts without party backing.
Cobtrast that with most of Europe (including Denmark(?)) where you have proportional voting for a parliament and then parliament forms a government. You can vote for your green party and while they might not get to be Prime Minister, they might be needed for the parliamentary majority to form a government and get the environment ministry. Win! Or they might just exert slight pressure in parliament directly, which is where laws are made. Not a loss!
The poor 'Mericans, meanwhile, are screwed. The only reasonable choice is between the two major parties at the elections. To turn that oil tanker they have to get involved in those parties and try to affect which candidates are put forth and then the party even skips that step entirely if they happened to have won the last presidential elections.
pop 4 points 2 years ago
lol, you're so free in the freedom land that you taking an un-awful option from the trainwreck gets you hate from the cult on both sides of the mainstream political parties.
Good on you for having a conscience.
Muricah!!!
alcoholicorn 0 points 2 years ago
I don't like the green party, they basically go away except for a publicity campaign once every 4 years.
PSL is constantly putting in work and has been at nearly every student protest.
Viking_Hippie 23 points 2 years ago
If she had bothered to campaign in the Midwest and had just generally been a much better candidate, more people would have.
It's the job of a politician to earn votes and faithfully represent the priorities of the majority of the voters. People like Hillary, Biden, Schumer and the rest of the Dem leadership seldom do either.
gregorum 11 points 2 years ago
It’s also the job of the electorate to educate themselves on the consequences of their vote (and non-vote). Don’t act like nobody knew who Trump was, what he had already done, or was listening to what he was saying.
MossyFeathers 21 points 2 years ago
I honestly regret not voting for Hillary. I didn't vote for Trump either, I voted third-party because I thought Hillary was going to win, and even if she didn't win, what's the worst Trump could do, huh? So I figured it wouldn't hurt to vote for a third-party with the hope they'd get enough points to be on the debate stage during the next general election.
Granted, my vote probably wouldn't have made a difference. Tbh, considering I live in a state with winner-takes-all voting, I'm not even sure my vote actually matters now; but I'm still going to vote for Biden. It's better than assuming he'll win and risking another Trump victory.
Yes, I know I'm not the main character and I'm only one person. I know that changing my vote alone won't make a difference. However, what might make a difference is if I talk about my reasoning in a public forum. Then, people might stop, read my post, and change their minds. Now, it's not one vote, it's two. They might spread their view as well, and two votes becomes four. Four votes becomes eight; and eight becomes sixteen. As small as that sounds, sixteen votes can make all the difference in an election. There are elections that have come down to one or two votes.
HelixDab2 8 points 2 years ago
I did the same thing, in a solidly blue state, with the same thought processes; I voted for Jill Stein. Even after Trump won, I figured he couldn't fuck it up too badly. I even thought he might manage to get one thing right (I'm very solidly pro-2A), but nope, he couldn't even do that.
Biden isn't nearly far enough left for me. But I'll vote for him without even a hint of hesitation, because he's so much better than the only realistic possibility. And I live in a purple state now, so it might end up mattering.
return2ozma -63 points 2 years ago
Well I'm not voting for Trump so I guess, by your logic, that means I'm voting for Biden. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Seasoned_Greetings 70 points 2 years ago
Asserting this is obtusely ignoring the context that conservative voters have no qualms about voting for someone grossly immoral.
There aren't conservatives out there saying "Yeah well I was gonna vote for Trump but he supports genociding Palestinians".
The fact that conservatives don't have this problem and everyone else does means that, yes, you are enabling Trump by not voting Biden. The "logic" necessarily does not work the other way around, even if you say it like some sort of clever gotcha with a complex emoji.
MindTraveller 15 points 2 years ago
"Nooo you don't understand I'm definitely going to defeat fascism by doing absolutely nothing ever. You just don't understand the benefits of political apathy"
TheOakTree 2 points 2 years ago
Something something accelerationism... surely if we let the fascists win now then they'll let us win later!
PeggyLouBaldwin -20 points 2 years ago path: 0 10251826 10251882 10252538 10252787, hotness: undefined, score: -20, children: 27
Seasoned_Greetings 10 points 2 years ago
Why indeed? The fact is that not enough people vote for third parties for it to matter by an order of magnitude.
Conservatives don't vote third party. When we do, we split our own vote in the face of a party that has their base on lock.
Because that logic is abundantly obvious, people don't vote third party enough to make a difference. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. And it's so effective at actually splitting the vote that both parties have attempted running spoiler candidates in the past to do just that.
Why doesnt everyone just vote third party? Because enough people who could are afraid that it will mean degrading democracy by handing over the reigns if it doesn't work, thereby creating the very problem that they are afraid of.
Nioxic 12 points 2 years ago
Trump is leading the polls.
so if you currently think "im not gonna vote", then you're giving trump a head start
A majority of the non-voters are more likely to vote for the democrats. thats also why the republicans are making it as difficult as possible to vote. coz they know, the more who vote, the less likely they are at winning
maniclucky -1 points 2 years ago
Were you predisposed to vote for Trump? Then yes.
turtletracks 4 points 2 years ago
No one here WANTS to vote for Biden, but it's literally the only way to make sure Trump isn't president, unless you want to go ahead and change the national bipartisan system by November.
crispy_kilt 77 points 2 years ago
Not voting for Biden is the same thing as voting for Trump.
Voting for Biden doesn't mean supporting him. It means preventing Trump from becoming president.
OneWomanCreamTeam -28 points 2 years ago
You mean you threw your ballot in the trash?
dependencyinjection 20 points 2 years ago
They clearly said they voted Biden. Biden won.
Nom 26 points 2 years ago
I never liked Biden since the Obama years and I now hate him quite a bit. Sadly voting for him at this point is simply necessary, because if I am not in a good enough state to survive then I cannot support the Palestinians nor Ukrainians.
Jennykichu 0 points 2 years ago
I don't get this attitude. Obama was literally against gay marriage. Biden's policies have been so much more progressive than Obama's and yet nobody I know likes him more. I'm not a "fan" of Biden but that's because it's weird and creepy to be a "fan" of government officials. He does a lot I don't like but if you literally hate Biden I don't forsee any president ever meeting your criteria.
Nom 3 points 2 years ago
Obama was literally against gay marriage.
That's just one more reason I didn't like him.
Biden’s policies have been so much more progressive
He was a slightly better politician than Clinton so I didn't hate him, now he's still supporting Israel thus my aversion.
it’s weird and creepy to be a “fan” of government officials.
Tell that to all the people going to all the politicians rallies.
I don’t forsee any president ever meeting your criteria.
Bernie.
Ensign_Crab 1 point 2 years ago
I don’t forsee any president ever meeting your criteria.
Contentment does not produce change.
Xanis 20 points 2 years ago
This precise sentiment has gotten me told off a few times now. Usually with someone yelling the word "Genocide" over and over so I can't get a word in. People are so fucking dumb it's actually unbelievable.
Whatever my frustration, I just want us all to work together even after we get Biden a second term. The only reason, ONLY REASON, the GOP have their power is honestly because we can't stop slap fighting long enough to plant a foot in their asses. This would also work for the Democrats. We do have two feet. Whatever our perspectives and opinions, there is a single neigh universal truth we can all accept:
This life sure could be a lot better.
Ensign_Crab -1 points 2 years ago
This precise sentiment has gotten me told off a few times now.
This precise sentiment is based on the assumption that disliking Biden means not voting for him anyway.
RememberTheApollo_ -2 points 2 years ago
The people yelling genocide over and over have an agenda, not an opinion.
TokenBoomer -1 points 2 years ago
So the genocide doesn’t exist and isn’t happening?
RememberTheApollo_ 4 points 2 years ago
Yeah, that’s totally what I said. (Deep /s in case it isn’t obvious)
fuckingkangaroos -5 points 2 years ago
I'd say they have an opinion implanted in them by someone on social media with an agenda.
crispy_kilt -3 points 2 years ago
Putlers troll farms are maximally amplifying the Gaza tragedy in order to divide the west. The tragedy that his Iranian friends probably started for him.
supersquirrel 4 points 2 years ago
Or… hmm yes of course Putin trolls love the Palestinian genocide as it distracts from Ukraine but maybe just maybe tax payers are existentially fed up with the US committing a genocide with their money and lying straight faced to tax payers about the impossibility of doing anything about it?
crispy_kilt 4 points 2 years ago
Yes to all of that. The trolls are amplifying that sentiment is what I am saying. Like pouring petrol on a fire.
the_doktor 11 points 2 years ago
Exactly. This is what I cannot understand from all these "true hyper-leftist" people. You do realize that the future of the USA is at stake here, and that our system is fundamentally rigged to not allow any real alternative as a choice, right? Your brain-dead "BIDEN BAD VOTE THIRD PARTY" is just going to enable Trump and then you'll never be able to vote for anyone ever again as you are forced to participate in alt-right Trump rallies every single day and post on the Trumpernet about how much you love Trump. This isn't much of an exaggeration -- this where they want to go if Trump wins.
You're not supporting Biden. This isn't how our vote works. You're voting for the person less likely to fundamentally fuck our country up. And in case you still don't quite understand who this is, that is Biden.
trafficnab 10 points 2 years ago
Unfortunately unless a revolution falls into our laps and magically solves all our problems, the modicum of control we have over the steering of this ship is limited to voting and advocating for others to vote
Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In 6 points 2 years ago
Can we safely encourage Republicans to vote 3rd party?
nickwitha_k 1 point 2 years ago
Yes.
TokenBoomer 2 points 2 years ago
They’ll never accept that, because they fundamentally see nothing wrong with the system. They want to preserve the broken machine, even if it doesn’t work for them. They think changing the oil will repair it, when it was designed to break.
Eccitaze 3 points 2 years ago
More like we don't want to crash our only car when we don't have another means of transportation, and oops, now we can't get to work.
It's great to say "the system is broken and must be replaced." I agree! But nobody who says that, me included, has ever had anything resembling an actual plan to replace the system or to prevent something even worse from taking over once the system is destroyed.
Everyone gave the GOP shit for screaming about how Obamacare needs to be "repealed and replaced" but never saying what it should be replaced with (though that was because the "replace" part was a lie and they just wanted to go back to the bad old days of people being trapped in a job or entirely unable to get insurance because of a preexisting condition). It's the same thing with people saying the entire system of government needs to be replaced.
the_doktor 0 points 2 years ago
Not the point. Trump needs to be defeated, and the way we're going to do that is voting for Biden. There's no other way. It's not going to happen. You are absolutely deluded if you think there is another way.
After we fend off the Trump bullshit, then, yes, we have to make actual change to push us much further left. I don't get how all the ultra-leftists cannot fathom this simple fact.
Ensign_Crab 0 points 2 years ago
After we fend off the Trump bullshit, then, yes, we have to make actual change to push us much further left.
That was the lie in 2020 and it didn't fucking happen. Now Biden is supporting genocide and we still gotta vote for him.
Eyck_of_denesle 7 points 2 years ago
I'm not American dawg. I hate biden as much as I want. Let me hate.
Xanis 5 points 2 years ago
Nah, everyone is free to hate. However, support from others on this planet against Trump is also important. To some degree we all affect one another and his rise into the seat again would directly impact a LOT of people, even outside the U.S.
BUT
I'm hoping that there is now enough anger and frustration for us to carry the momentum past the voting gates and straight into very strong pressure towards all politicians. This IS fixable. The message is there, even if it will result in violence from our militarized police force.
Zengen -12 points 2 years ago
This is ignorant fear mongering. If thats the way the system works as you say? Then its our duty as citizens to destroy the system entirely. If thats America then this is not a democracy and its certainly not a democracy worthy of being preserved. IF that is the system you claim Joe biden stands to preserve? Then we SHOULD let trump come in and tear the whole thing down.
I think trump is a fundamentally morally detestable character. Butt iv lived thru 1 trump presidency. Hes backwards, hes an ass. Hes not a good leader. But hes not the end of everything as we know it. And I'm not giving more power to a corrupt party of beaurocrats who continue to lie to my fucking face while selling me out to corporate interests behind my back and completely hollowing out our countries economic capability all the while refusing to make good on any of their promises and funneling all my tax money to foreign wars while we bleed for healthcare. Fuck this countries "democracy" the fact you even believe we live in a democracy is hilarious. Congress has a 14% approval rating. Our representatives do not represent the will of the america people. They represent the will of their largest financial donors.
pearsaltchocolatebar 10 points 2 years ago
If you think that's fear mongering then you clearly haven't been paying attention for the past 8 years.
Pandantic 2 points 2 years ago
I get what you're saying, but I'm trying to parse what is actual "things that can / will happen under a Trump presidency" vs "what the democrats and liberal media want us to think can / will happen under a Trump presidency". I'm likely voting Biden simply because I saw what a shitshow the Supreme Court became (and will be for quite some time) under a Trump presidency. But I also notice Biden did fuck all about it so part of me wonders if the democrats are doing nothing for the simple fact that they have a fearmongering device setting the up for the next election. I mean, honestly the state of politics in the US is just pathetic.
Zink 6 points 2 years ago
I feel the frustration, and agree with it. But the choice you’re describing does not exist. The options aren’t “fucked up status quo” with Biden and “start over fresh” with Trump, though. The options are “fucked up status quo” with Biden and “way fucking worse corporatism, inequality, treatment of any marginalized/minority group, personal freedoms, bodily autonomy, religious liberty, foreign relations, healthcare, education, environment… oh and let’s just completely give up the little voice we have” with Trump.
All the stuff that pisses you off about the corrupt bureaucrats in the Democratic Party exists across the board in the Republican Party, but worse.
I could see somebody voting for Trump hoping that the world ends more quickly and rebuilds so that their great-grandkids, if they exist/survive, might live in a better system. But the price for placing that unlocke unlikely bet is to fuck up the system now and in the near future, negatively affecting tens of millions to billions of actual people.
the_doktor 3 points 2 years ago
Ignorant? Look up Project 2025. Then tell me I'm exaggerating. You are either laughably ignorant about our situation, or you're a Trumper trying to convince people that everything will be fine when it will absolutely not be.
Vote blue in 2024, then push better agendas and vote true left next time. Because I can guarantee you if Trump wins, you won't be voting any more.
CptInsane0 7 points 2 years ago
By that logic, not voting for Trump is the same as voting for Biden.
Jennykichu 6 points 2 years ago
Your point? If you have conservative values, then not supporting Trump does indeed help Biden to win.
crispy_kilt -1 points 2 years ago
Nope, because, and this will shock you, they are not the same
Ensign_Crab -4 points 2 years ago
The meme does not mention voting. Why do centrists always make the leap from "dislike Biden" to "not vote" or "vote third party"?
crispy_kilt 2 points 2 years ago
Did you just call me a centrist? That's hurtful.
Jennykichu 3 points 2 years ago
Not voting doesn’t mean you support Trump.
You're saying that if you did vote, it would be for Trump? Because that's the only case in which not voting wouldn't help Trump.
Linkerbaan -20 points 2 years ago
Voting for Biden means supporting Biden.
Biden is poised to heavily lose already in almost all polls. The faster people realize this and pick a different candidate the better.
Zengen -14 points 2 years ago
RFK 2024. Hes the only one who could truly challenge trump. And if the democrats dont realize this. He will end up making trump president. The democrats have the power to stop trump by putting down their pride and getting behind a real true common sense democratic candidate. And that is RFK Jr. Their refusal to acknowledge that and their blatant cancelling of our democratic process is what will make Donald trump victorious. Pride and hubris.
Linkerbaan -6 points 2 years ago
RFK is a filthy Zionist as well. I can't even tell the difference between RFK and just voting for Trump or Biden.
WeirdGoesPro 16 points 2 years ago
You have chosen…brain worm.
UristMcHolland 8 points 2 years ago
Might as well throw your vote in the trash. Your little protest won't be heard by anyone who matters.
TokenBoomer 1 point 2 years ago
Until he picks RFK as his running mate.
Test_Tickles 1 point 2 years ago path: 0 10256383 10258342 10259969, hotness: undefined, score: 1, children: 0
Railcar8095 17 points 2 years ago
it seems quite straightforward really. What are you having issues making sense?
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Railcar8095 11 points 2 years ago
Oh, so you understood, you were just being obtuse. And now wrong.
seanziepples 74 points 2 years ago
I'm not going to tell anybody what to do or who to vote for but one of two things are very likely to happen at the end of this election:
- Biden is re-elected. We continue with the status quo. We have a chance to make small incremental steps toward a better future.
- Trump is elected. Two Supreme Court justices retire and Trump appoints two more. At that point he will have appointed FIVE of NINE Supreme Court justices. We have already seen what they're willing to do. Imagine what they will do in the literal decades to come.
Choose what you want to do, but take responsibility for your choice. Vote in your local elections. Big changes can happen from the ground up.
WholeEnchilada -15 points 2 years ago
"But take responsibility for your choices"strikes me as hilarious. Voting is not public. In a democracy with private polling,hardly anybody takes responsibility for their choices. Actually, zero percent. That is why the elected president is never popular for like the first year in office. Wouldn't it be lovely if people assumed their responsibility for making choices, though? I would be on speaking terms with so many people from my past if they actually learned from their own stupidity.
GreyEyedGhost 17 points 2 years ago
I'd say the changes from voting for Trump are pretty big.
ezterry 11 points 2 years ago
Sorry, you will get big changes voting for Trump. becasue too much is already in place to make those types of changes happen. I dont agree with these changes, but to say they are the "same" is a dangerous opinion.
The person at the top is needed to green light policy.. those lower down present such policy.. While this can seem boring it is important, since while by definition the president will be at the center of their party. If the party you vote for is most interested in vetoing everything of the other party.. even if they agree with the law in general, there is no progress.
Of course you must do more than just vote for the least bad president to make the change happen.. However if you can't at least do that you own the results os the OP said.
hperrin 30 points 2 years ago
You have two options:
- Ok with genocide. Otherwise relatively progressive. Has passed major important legislation.
- Ok with genocide. Wants to be a dictator. Appointed half of the Supreme Court majority that took away women’s right to abortion. Will probably strip more rights if elected. Cut taxes on the wealthy and will probably do it again.
You can throw away your vote, but come inauguration, you will have a president who is ok with genocide.
papertowels 8 points 2 years ago
So.... What do you think are the odds that your third party vote improves the situation in Palestine?
If your third party vote makes it more likely that Trump wins and results in more bloodshed, that is a choice you contributed to, and blood is still on your hands.
dependencyinjection 7 points 2 years ago
But then if Trump wins because you didn’t vote for either, then you’re ok with Genocide+ rather than Genocide light. Meaning you have to vote for the lesser of the two evils if no matter what you do the majority are voting for the only two who are likely to win.
You’re either incredibly stupid, a troll, or are being obstinate on purpose.
bolexforsoup 4 points 2 years ago
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GreyEyedGhost 1 point 2 years ago
Cool, I'll give you a pass on the genocide, but you will still be as responsible as anyone who voted for Trump for all the other terrible things he said he will do that you are doing nothing to prevent.
turtletracks 1 point 2 years ago
Not voting is a vote for Trump.
OneWomanCreamTeam 16 points 2 years ago
If you're not ok with genocide you should vote against Donald "just nuke them" Trump.
pearsaltchocolatebar 8 points 2 years ago
Voting for anyone but Biden is the same as voting for Trump.
Eyck_of_denesle 3 points 2 years ago
How is the post encouraging anything
TokenBoomer -2 points 2 years ago
Criticizing our leaders is one of the core principals of democracy.
Was that sarcasm I missed?
YeetPics -1 points 2 years ago
It's not, it's discouraging voting for the guy that counters the "boof bleach" incest loving fell who "only will be a dictator for a day". You know, the unified Reich vibe that you totally are against lmao.
TokenBoomer 2 points 2 years ago
Then, why isn’t voting compulsory?
TokenBoomer 2 points 2 years ago
There’s a contradiction. If you are allowed not to vote in a democracy, and you don’t like any of the candidates, then, how can it be misguided to withhold your vote?
franklin 3 points 2 years ago
No it isn't. You have the right not to vote but participation should be encouraged as it's what gives everyone a say. Seems pretty simple to me. I'm not even saying they don't have the right to discourage people but if you have lived through the last 8 years and do it, you're a REALLY slow learner.
Seraph 30 points 2 years ago
Yup, and the only way out of that is Ranked Choice Voting.
Go volunteer for your local RCV group, California's is here: https://www.calrcv.org/
bolexforsoup 6 points 2 years ago
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Sanctus 7 points 2 years ago
Nobody thinks its a magic bullet, we're all looking for the next rung that leads us closer to a happy democracy. None of us are looking for instant easy solutions, we're trying to iterate and be better.
bolexforsoup 5 points 2 years ago
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bolexforsoup 1 point 2 years ago
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AlDente 2 points 2 years ago
I never made any indication on how I'm voting. I'm just tired of this baseless claim that voting 3rd party only helps Trump. Polls excluding 3rd-parties show Trump significantly further ahead than those with 3rd-parties. Therefore, Biden's only chance of winning is due to JFK capturing conservative votes.
TexasDrunk 3 points 2 years ago
Maybe. A lot of folks only know him for his good environmental stance and see him as the rightful Democrat candidate.
They don't see his antivax bullshit and leaky brain from WiFi.
papertowels 0 points 2 years ago
A different way to think about it - most of the intended audience on Lemmy, and especially in this community, would've voted democrat instead of republican. So from the frame of reference of this post, most folks here claiming to vote third party did in fact have their vote "taken" from Biden.
SkyNTP 36 points 2 years ago
Unfortunately, the US political system does not have a feature to "dislike" all the candidates. Not without a major, probably bloody, revolution, anyway. Your choice is to support and pick one candidate, or let everyone else pick the candidate for you.
MacNCheezus 0 points 2 years ago
You can always write in your own candidate. Not that it's likely to sway the vote in any significant way, but at least it might help you feel better about your choice.
TonyTonyChopper 0 points 2 years ago
I'm ready for the third option tbh
suction 33 points 2 years ago
Ok but what no leftie has yet explained is who has asked them to like Biden? Probably nobody who votes for Biden last time or this time around thinks he’s “teh awesome”, we’re simply grown ups who are able to tell which is the least bad option. Honestly lefties (if they aren’t just groipers posing as lefties) who think it’s a hot take to say Biden isn’t the optimal person to be President are all suffering from Captain Obvious syndrome while thinking they’re the cleverest people ever. It’s cringe.
RagingRobot -10 points 2 years ago
We have been doing it for over 200 years now though
papertowels 1 point 2 years ago
Ehhhh, things are looking a little dicey...
bolexforsoup 28 points 2 years ago
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disguy_ovahea 22 points 2 years ago
Critiques are necessary. We don’t owe electors loyalty. They owe us representation.
With that being said, when it comes to voting, inaction is action.
bolexforsoup 3 points 2 years ago
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disguy_ovahea 6 points 2 years ago
I’m sorry if my comment implied disagreement. It was meant to support and reinforce your point, not counter it.
bolexforsoup 4 points 2 years ago
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bolexforsoup 1 point 2 years ago
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TexasDrunk 1 point 2 years ago
It's an idiot trying to make a terrible point.
bouldering_barista 27 points 2 years ago
Yeah, but.... Oftentimes criticizing Biden helps trump. I'd rather not even risk it at this point.
Can we spend more energy celebrating that trump is NOT the president and how bad it would be if he comes back?
glimse 45 points 2 years ago
Criticizing Biden is totally fine. It's the pressure from these posters to not vote for Biden out of principle that's the problem.
Biden is flubbing the Gaza situation hard but he's still (unfortunately) our only chance to keep Trump out of office.
This post should really say "Just because we dislike Biden doesn't mean we shouldn't vote for him"
alcoholicorn 12 points 2 years ago
Telling the DNC that you and most people will vote for him unconditionally is sabotaging his chances; the dems need to understand they cannot win if they continue the path they're on, and telling them otherwise is counterproductive.
Silencing criticism of millions isn't gonna win an election. Doing the things the people whose votes you need are telling you to do will.
TheFriar 9 points 2 years ago
Well, the problem is, the way the US sees it, keeping Israel as an ally is more important than Joe Biden. Yes, even if that means fascism comes humping an American flag. You can still be at the top of the postwar order with a fascist in charge!
MindTraveller 7 points 2 years ago
The DNC are not on Lemmy.
alcoholicorn 2 points 2 years ago
Yeah, but they're listening to public sentiment.
If public sentiment is "everyone's gonna vote for Biden no matter what", they're not gonna change the course, and then be shocked when they get blown out worse than they did in 2016.
HauntedCupcake 1 point 2 years ago
The problem is that people are dumb, and plenty are legitimately not planning on voting for Biden now.
If and when Biden deals with Gaza, everyone with this mindset immediately needs to turn around and start sucking off Biden with previously unseen vigor and determination, otherwise this is only going to damage his chance of being elected. Hell, even then I still see some damage being done.
It just seems irresponsible to spread this message, especially when people like OP seem to genuinely believe it. Pick a less blatantly fascist opponent than Trump to do this with ffs
alcoholicorn 2 points 2 years ago
If and when Biden deals with Gaza, everyone with this mindset immediately needs to turn around and start sucking off Biden with previously unseen vigor and determination, otherwise this is only going to damage his chance of being elected.
There's tens of thousands of mostly children dead, and Israel is using famine and disease to wipe out the rest, no shit it damages Biden's chances if his actions come this late. Especially if Biden's answer to Gaza is ship Israel weapons more quietly while claiming to hold up shipments, while Israel starves Gaza out.
Then again, if Biden stops the money and arms to Israel, and sanctions Israel, and Trump responds by promising money and arms to Israel so they can resume the genocide, I don't see how anyone could not vote Biden.
supersquirrel 1 point 2 years ago
Gaza situation
Sorry, call it how it is, the Palestinian genocide
stanleytweedle 27 points 2 years ago
'Dislike' and 'support' are immaterial. Votes are all that matter. Sorry in reality no one cares about your super nuanced political position but if you're not voting for Biden in 2024 you're either useless or an actively opposing my civil and human rights.
TheOakTree 26 points 2 years ago
A group holds a vote to either cross a bridge to side A or stay on side B. Staying on side A means you won't have much food. Going to side B means you still won't have much food, but also most of the food is poisonous.
Part of the group says "I don't want to starve, I refuse to vote in a way that accepts malnourishment as a solution!" Group C also opposes eating poisonous food. This partial group votes to try and find a better source of food (option C).
48% of people vote A. 49% of people vote B. 3% of people vote C.
Surprise, surprise, Group C had 0 impact on the starving situation AND helped facilitate the eating of poisonous food.
Fuck Biden, and FUCK Trump. But if you think voting for a leftist party or abstaining from voting will change anything in a system entirely designed around having only two candidates, you are just as okay with Trump as you are with Biden. At the very least, you are saying that they are equally as bad, showing that you clearly don't understand the dynamic.
billwashere 23 points 2 years ago
Like a real president should, Biden does a lot of things I agree with and some I don’t. I thought Obama was one of the greatest presidents in my lifetime but even he did things I didn’t completely agree with. Would I’d rather have someone like Bernie or AOC in the Oval Office? Absolutely (well except he’s to old and she’s to young). Could we do better than Biden? Also absolutely. What I’d love to see is national ranked choice voting and more like 5-6 candidates. I think this would be better for everyone. But Trump is an existential crisis waiting to happen. I’m not sure this country can withstand another Trump presidency. Frankly I’m not sure my health can either. I literally noticed a significant drop in my BP when Trump left.
So yeah, you can be critical of Biden and not a Trump supporter. Frankly if you’re not a little critical of any president regardless of party, you’re not in a party, you’re in a cult.
JasonDJ 3 points 2 years ago
Speaking of a different BP, I don't think that humanity could survive another Trump presidency. That BP being British Petroleum.
Shitty segway I know.
But part of Project 2025 is to roll back climate regulations, invest solely into fossil fuels, and hamstring the EPA. So, you know, as much as we complain that not enough is being done...that's the alternative.
TokenBoomer 2 points 2 years ago
Biden should maybe, talk about that.
JasonDJ 1 point 2 years ago
I think Biden has a really tough job at this campaign.
He's not going to sway any Trump voters. He's going to have to get people in key states to actually show up at the polls and vote for him.
Several of those key states care a lot about fossil fuels. States whose biggest industry is coal, or oil, or cars, or steel.
So harking a lot on climate policy won't sway them much, and directly attacking Trump's policy will just enrage Trump's base and potentially cost him really important states.
He has to break apathy while also not fanning Trump's flames too much. I think that's an incredibly delicate balance for this one issue, let alone everything else. It's like trying to tell Bruce Banner you ran over his dog. It's the right thing to do, but you're still going to regret it.
TokenBoomer 0 points 2 years ago
It doesn’t help that each day he gets older.
MindTraveller 21 points 2 years ago
Leftists 🤝 Tankies
Hating Biden
Tankies 🤝 Centrists
Doing nothing to oppose Trump
How hard is this to understand?
Linkerbaan -16 points 2 years ago
Tankies love Biden. Biden is openly complicit in a massive Genocide and openly denies it. It doesn't tet more tankie than that.
Current Democrat voters are the biggest tankies in our lifetime.
TokenBoomer -2 points 2 years ago
The logic is sound, it doesn’t get more authoritarian than a genocide.
S_204 17 points 2 years ago
Not voting for Biden is supporting Trump. Not voting is supporting Trump.
This is the simple reality of the situation. Memes don't make a difference in vote totals even if they make you feel special about being the hero you think you are.
towerful 13 points 2 years ago
Well, if the Tories get back in then deporting people to Rwanda and expansion of oil drilling in the north sea will be guaranteed.
Voting for lab, there is a chance that these will be cancelled.
Tories have had decades in charge, and shit is fucked.
Labour are more progressive - not enough for my taste, but better than constant austerity
alcoholicorn 3 points 2 years ago
What's the chance Starmer does 80% of what the Tories would have done, then the Tories get a supermajority next election?
I'm just an American, so IDK, but I've seen two democratic majorities in my lifetime, both of which played out that way.
SwingingTheLamp -7 points 2 years ago
If your choices lead to a trump presidency I don’t see how your intent matters at all
Is this directed at Merrick Garland?
Son_of_dad 11 points 2 years ago
The timing maybe? I've been saying Biden is the worst example of a democrat since the Obama days, and got downvoted about pointing out his bullshit. His contribution to the drug war alone is atrocious. But I kept getting down voted for saying it. Suddenly now it's election time, second go round, and here comes everyone jumping on Biden. Seems sus.
DadVolante 13 points 2 years ago
We have lived under presidencies of both Biden and Trump.
It isn't sus to realize one is better than the other, dude
Son_of_dad 6 points 2 years ago
Huh? That's what I'm saying, Biden is a saint compared to Trump. It's just sus that right now, at election time 2024 is when it's suddenly a big deal. It only benefits Trump
Strykker 5 points 2 years ago
Your wording was probably a little confusing, I read "jumping on Biden" initially as in "voting / rooting for him", but you likely meant it in the context of them "questioning everything he does". Depending which one is used changes your phrasing from criticizing Biden to supporting him.
HelixDab2 9 points 2 years ago
Thing is, the absolutely worst things that he's done throughout his career have been pretty mainstream at the time. Like that omnibus crime bill? That was overwhelmingly supported, with only very, very limited Democratic opposition in very limited areas. (And a lot of black communities still support 'tough on crime' approaches because they look at the short term rather than the long.)
Even the support of Israel is pretty middle-of-the-road. Most Dems still support Israel, even while being appalled at the indiscriminate nature of Israel's violence in Gaza
EmperorHenry 11 points 2 years ago path: 0 10265644, hotness: undefined, score: 11, children: 0
ashok36 6 points 2 years ago
People that watch the news favor Biden by 10pts. It's people that get their info from social media and YouTube that favor Trump overwhelmingly.
The algorithm promotes attention seeking behavior and Trump is the god king of attention seeking.
OneWomanCreamTeam 6 points 2 years ago
That's the same as not voting.
OneWomanCreamTeam 8 points 2 years ago
No sweetheart, America uses first past the post voting. Voting third party is straight up just throwing your ballot on the trash.
GoodEye8 0 points 2 years ago
Different actions, same outcome. The US system effectively turns voting into 2 party voting. 3rd party vote is the essentially the same as not voting because your vote won't count for anything.
Let's say in your state Biden gets 200 votes, Trump gets 199 votes. You, for the sake of the argument, get 2 votes. Let's say you vote third party. What's the outcome? Biden wins. But what if you don't vote at all? Biden still wins. If you give both votes to Trump then Trump wins.
Now you may argue that if you vote third party then maybe you could instead swing the vote for third party. That is insanely unlikely, but let's say that happens and your state ends up voting third party. That is still, let's say 10, points to third party while all the other states split their votes between Biden and Trump. So that's 10 points to 3rd party, 200+ to Biden and Trump. All you can achieve is to take away points from either candidate and that may swing the election towards one of two candidates, but your candidate will not win anyway.
In short, voting third party does nothing. Best you can hope for is to disrupt the existing voting process but that's is pretty unlikely. You might as well not even vote.
LazyPhilosopher 7 points 2 years ago
Could just also mean you live in a non swing state and want to give a 3rd party a shot at getting over 5% of the vote so they can get federal funding and be a more serious option in the next election. 🙂
JasonDJ 0 points 2 years ago
Yeah no.
You don't know whose gonna show up and whose gonna stay home. Plenty of states were lost in 2016 just out of apathy. Enough states were lost in 2000 because Nader cared more about the environment.
Here's the thing. Suppose a progressive third-party candidate actually gets 5% of a popular vote. Well, there's only 100% to go around. So, a progressive third-party candidate would be likely be taking from the more-left first-party candidate.
So let's look at 2020. Biden had 51.3% of the popular vote, Trump had 46.9. So take 5 from Biden and that puts him at...46.3.
That's fine...after all we learned that the electoral college is all that really matters, right? Except two out of the last three presidential elections that Republicans won, they lost the popular vote, but because the EC favors their states, the won the election.
It. Is. Not. Worth. The. Risk.
The only way that it works (at least under FPTP rules) is if a comfortable majority of the country is already leaning in the direction of your third party, enough so that even with the 5%, the more closely aligned party still wins by a comfortable margin. We are not in such a position. Voting for a third party in the current conditions in the hope that they'll get to that magical 5 is, most certainly, shooting yourself in the foot.
Honestly the more you think about it, the more it seems like that 5% number is spoiler-candidate bait for the unaligned party to use at their advantage, to make voters feel like they are doing a good and noble thing, when they really are just cutting off their nose to spite their face.
VictoriaAScharleau 2 points 2 years ago
al gore won the 2000 election, even with nader running. it was the supreme court that coronated bush.
LazyPhilosopher 1 point 2 years ago
Yeah no one takes orders from you take it down a notch kiddo. 😜
No reasonable person would predict my state would turn in this election. Even our Republican politicians hate trump here 🤣. Trump won't win my state. I would wager as much money as I could on it lol. Trying to dictate what I do with my vote based off this improbability is silly.
JasonDJ 0 points 2 years ago
Don't be so laissez-faire with your words. You could easily be astroshitting all over the place. Somebody in Michigan or Pennsylvania or Florida or Arizona could think that voting for a third party will give them the warm/fuzzies too.
ezterry -4 points 2 years ago
Do it in the primary.. where the current system expects it.. but.. there is only 1 or 2 primary candidates in the current style winner takes all scenario we have.. and ID say fight for instant runoff elections, but vote for those with a chance until then.. Even if you think your state is safe..
LazyPhilosopher 0 points 2 years ago
How about no?
LazyPhilosopher 2 points 2 years ago
When you see the next election in 2028 please remember how wrong you were 🙂
KillingTimeItself 5 points 2 years ago
what a crazy era to live in.
This post is kinda fucking depressing.
HipHoboHarold 4 points 2 years ago
I feel like a lot of the comments are kind of proving the point. If we say we don't like Biden, then suddenly everyone assumes we aren't voting and therfore are helping Trump. In reality, the meme literally says nothing about voting. That's everyone else jumping to that conclusion.
"I'm just reminding everyone!"
Don't worry. We all know how elections work.
"I don't care if you don't like him! I care about votes!"
Cool. Then let me not like him.
Colour_me_triggered 2 points 2 years ago path: 0 10309147, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
electric_nan 1 point 2 years ago
To everyone in this thread, whoever you are or are not voting for: what is your plan if Trump wins? I think everyone agrees that it is pretty much 50/50 on him winning. What do you plan to do about the coming total fascist hellscape? Do you have plans and means to emigrate? Are you buying guns and ammo? Are you just gonna go along to get along?
daltotron 1 point 2 years ago
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I dunno I'm just gonna leave this here I guess
sudo 0 points 2 years ago
Genocide should not be a bipartisan issue. Genocide being unelectable even in just one party is good. If your starting position is "yes, both candidates will commit genocide" you should continue with discussion about direct action tactics. Otherwise I'll doubt that you actually think Biden is committing genocide.
werefreeatlast 0 points 2 years ago
Also remember that we don't actually vote for the president. That's the job of the electoral college. They just want to see if we all guessed it right.
Hey guess who is the next person to be the president? C'mon tell us! I'm going to guess Biden....I'm going to guess Trump! You are both wrong! The next president is this Gala Apple 🍎 with a worm inside!
Thanks electoral college! Without you. How could we ever know who You want to rule over us all like a king?
Facebones -1 points 2 years ago
Its literally impossible for democrats to not spread disinformation about leftists by claiming anyone who doesn't vote Biden is actively advocating for not voting. Hell I see a bunch of it in this comment section.
Democrats will claim they aren't fascist but they can't help but check off all the bullet points.
FreudianCafe -2 points 2 years ago path: 0 10248808, hotness: undefined, score: -2, children: 21
alcoholicorn 2 points 2 years ago
Please don't fedpost, they actually have people who investigate this shit.
bolexforsoup -4 points 2 years ago
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bolexforsoup 1 point 2 years ago
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kiljoy 0 points 2 years ago
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
This is easy stuff. Middle school social studies. Don’t be a boot licker.
UBoat237 -5 points 2 years ago
Even though I'm a Libertarian in the strictest sense I find this both true and quite funny. DJT is just as bad or worse than Biden. DJT himself has stated that he went to St. James island [aka orgy island] TWICE. It's just like in sinning against GOD...the first look isn't sinning, but when you look the 2nd time then it's a sin. DJT is similar to a DON in a mafia, but he is just the DON of the deep state. The only way to stop Trump is to declare the 2020 election in his favor, HOWEVER since he voluntarily left the oath of office for the Biden admin DJT cannot be legally elected a 3rd term. He would be disqualified.
Aceticon -6 points 2 years ago
The thing the libs/"moderates"/"centrists" don't seem to understand is that this vote has long been stollen from leftists by the DNC when they decided not to run a Democratic Primary.
So for lefties it's a "choose between Charles Mason and Jack The Ripper" vote: a false choice.
The only real choice for lefties in this vote is explained by Game Theory:
- Basically what you have here is a situation with entity A and entity B, that happens in rounds. Entity A chooses how to share something between A and B get, entity B decides to "accept" - in which case they both get their shares as decided by A - or "reject" in which case none of them gets anything.
- In simplified terms, Entity A is the DNC, Entity B are lefties, including those in the Democrat Party, rounds are the elections and what's being approprotioned is how much a presidential candidate represents each side.
What Game Theory tells us in this case, actually backed by scientific experiments carried out with actual humans, is that if Entity A divides things in a very selfish way and Entity B "accepts" rather than choose "reject", i.e. does not punish Entity A for it even at the cost of a small loss for itself, then in the next round Entity A will divide things in a just as bad or worse way for B.
It never happens that Entity A, being one that divides the cake in a very selfish way, becomes less selfish in that division after a round were Entity B chose to "accept" that division. The best you can merelly hope for as Entity B if you keep on "accepting" is that Entity A doesn't become even more selfish in the next round.
Applied to this very specific situation it means that as long as the lefties keep on accepting the choices of the DNC (who are liberals, backed by campaign contributions from very wealthy people) for who the Democrat Presidential Candidate represents the most, then for each subsequent election the choices of the DNC will be worse and worse for the lefties.
If you look at the rounds of this "game" so far - each round being an election - this is exactly what has been happenning: the only time the Democrat candidate is ever a little leftwards from the previous one is after after their votes from the left fall, which is generally when the Democrat Party loses an election.
So the correct choice for anybody on the left who wants a chance to elect a President that is more representative of their views, and that only in a future election (as the present is already lost since the DNC has already made its choice), is to "punish" by not voting (or, even better, voting a third party candidate if they find a suitable one), which does mean the DNC loses its big bet on a guy that pretty much only represents Liberals and even Zionists, even if leftis too will lose whatever tiny bit of "representation" they would get with the not-quite-as-extreme-right presidential candidate chosen by the DNC.
Do not "punish" and instead "accept" (by voting Biden) and the next round of the game (i.e. the next election) will be the same or worse.
o0oradaro0o 2 points 2 years ago
This argument implies that Biden is left of Obama. It also ignores the very real risk that by not voting for Biden in this round there will be no fair future rounds to participate in. It also ignores all other elections and chances to influence the party.
Trump is a uniquely different candidate than McCain, Romney, Bush, whoever you want to pick. He tried to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power and there is little reason to think he would not try again if given the chance.
Real life is not so simple as game theory and attempting these simplifications is not as rational as you imply.
Please vote in the coming election for Biden. The consequences of "Punishing" the Dnc are too dire to ignore.
Aceticon 0 points 2 years ago
"The only time that something" is the logical "might something" not the logical "must something"
Also you weren't like me right smack in the middle of the Finance Industry keenly observing what Obama (amongst others such as Cammeron in Britain and Merkel in Germany) did in the aftermath of the 2008 Crash and how they did it, or were living under a rock when the suppression of Occupy Wall Street happenned, if you think Obama is in any way form of shape leftwing, center-left or even center-right: you need to go way back, before Bill "I repealed the Glass-Steagal Act so that Finance can do whatevere the fuck it wants and thus caused the 2008 Crash" Clinton to find a Democrat with even the mildest touch of merelly center-left thinking.
TokenBoomer 0 points 2 years ago
Ie., if the game is rigged against you, the only option is not to play.
Rivalarrival 3 points 2 years ago
Guillotines are always an option.
supersquirrel -2 points 2 years ago
Well said thank you
goferking0 3 points 2 years ago
Sadly there are people on lemmy who like Biden and think he can do no wrong
goferking0 1 point 2 years ago
There are definitely people who think he can do no wrong, check out worlds politics sub.
Funny how you still managed to being up those pointing out his flaws while saying no one is saying he can do no wrong
bloodfart -16 points 2 years ago
Oh hey look, another thread for me to post in.
I will never vote for Joe Biden again and you can too.
The party for socialism and liberation is an American political party that has a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to israel.
Vote psl this November.
technocrit -22 points 2 years ago
TBH many "leftists" (aka grifters, shills, fash...) do like trump.
turtletracks 8 points 2 years ago
So... Not leftists?
ramenshaman 2 points 2 years ago
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
leftymemes
@lemmy.dbzer0.com
7420
1113
2209
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of "ML" (read: Dengist) influence. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, discussion and agitprop/stuff that's better fit for a poster than a meme go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme. Please post agitprop here)
0.5 [Provisional Rule] Try to use alt text or image descriptions to allow for greater accessibility
(Please take a look at our wiki page for the guidelines on how to actually write alternative text!)
We encourage alternative text (from now referred to as "alt text") to be added to all posts/comments containing media, such as images, animated GIFs, videos, audio files, and custom emojis.
EDIT: For files you share in the comments, a simple summary should be enough if they’re too complex.
We are committed to social equity and to reducing barriers of entry, including (digital) communication and culture. It takes each of us only a few moments to make a whole world of content (more) accessible to a bunch of folks.
When alt text is absent, a reminder will be issued. If you don't add the missing alt text within 48 hours, the post will be removed. No hard feelings.
0.5.1 Style tip about abbreviations and short forms
When writing stuff like "lol" and "iirc", it's a good idea to try and replace those with their all caps counterpart
- ofc => OFC
- af = AF
- ok => OK
- lol => LOL
- bc => BC
- bs => BS
- iirc => IIRC
- cia => CIA
- nato => Nato (you don't spell it when talking, right?)
- usa => USA
- prc => PRC
- etc.
Why? Because otherwise (AFAIK), screen readers will try to read them out as actually words instead of spelling them
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such
That means condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" (read: Dengists) (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
6. Don't irrationally idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
- Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Sexual assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
go to feed...
leftymemes
@lemmy.dbzer0.com
7420
1113
2209
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of "ML" (read: Dengist) influence. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, discussion and agitprop/stuff that's better fit for a poster than a meme go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme. Please post agitprop here)
0.5 [Provisional Rule] Try to use alt text or image descriptions to allow for greater accessibility
(Please take a look at our wiki page for the guidelines on how to actually write alternative text!)
We encourage alternative text (from now referred to as "alt text") to be added to all posts/comments containing media, such as images, animated GIFs, videos, audio files, and custom emojis.
EDIT: For files you share in the comments, a simple summary should be enough if they’re too complex.
We are committed to social equity and to reducing barriers of entry, including (digital) communication and culture. It takes each of us only a few moments to make a whole world of content (more) accessible to a bunch of folks.
When alt text is absent, a reminder will be issued. If you don't add the missing alt text within 48 hours, the post will be removed. No hard feelings.
0.5.1 Style tip about abbreviations and short forms
When writing stuff like "lol" and "iirc", it's a good idea to try and replace those with their all caps counterpart
- ofc => OFC
- af = AF
- ok => OK
- lol => LOL
- bc => BC
- bs => BS
- iirc => IIRC
- cia => CIA
- nato => Nato (you don't spell it when talking, right?)
- usa => USA
- prc => PRC
- etc.
Why? Because otherwise (AFAIK), screen readers will try to read them out as actually words instead of spelling them
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such
That means condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" (read: Dengists) (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
6. Don't irrationally idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
- Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Sexual assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
go to feed...
I'm cool with that, but folks should also remember this:
save