Apple to Soon Take Up to 30% Cut From All Patreon Creators in iOS App
9 months ago by Sine_Fine_Belli to c/technology
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ca/post/59469059
I always end up with MacBooks after startups and love to have something I can just pick up and use whereas my PC is my command center. Most of my shit is web or local web services so just need a Mozilla terminal. Also, I can't fathom buying one out of pocket. I've also never had an iPhone, it doesn't make sense to my brain.
So...if you're just using web stuff, you could probably save a heap by using a Chromebook. That's what my wife's personal laptop is and is perfect for web stuff (and has the option of Android apps too, like Mozilla). It's not her only computer though.
You’d rather be spied on constantly by the largest panopticon ever created, because they allow sideloading.
Honestly this is voting for Trump over Kamala; we need a viable alternative. Why have they taken personal computing from us?
No, I'd rather use my device like I want to use my device instead of how I'm told to use it. I don't need to sideload on this device but glad I can if and when I want to. I prefer having a computer with me rather than a purposely stunted device kept that way to sell other devices in the ecosystem.
Were being spied on regardless, better to choose the option that allows one to do the most with it. If I could throw together my own phone and run a Linux variant on then I fucken would, but as it phone hardware is ass and Linux mobile doesn't exist for my phone.
So you'd rather be spies on by the formerly largest panopticon ever created AND not be able to side load?
If you think Apple is some paragon of privacy you might want to do some research on that lol.
Been locked in this ecosystem for a while guys. I'm not proud of it.
It’s better than the alternatives, unfortunately. I really want to dump Apple; the products are waning in quality and the company is spending a lot of time genuflecting for king tangerine. But it just works.
“Just install grapheneOS” my brother in Christ, I have no time or interest in fucking up with the primary communication device I rely on to reach family, friends, and work. I don’t have time for the hobbies I want to do let alone adding work-adjacent activities under the cloak of a hobby.
The ecosystem is really seamless, especially with a MacBook and Apple watch in the mix.
Though I don’t think there is any winning in the smartphone space. There is a duopoly and even if you personally use graphineOS you still are benefitting and helping the Google ecosystem by using Android apps.
Sadly I don’t think we can “vote with our wallets” on smartphones. We need legal legislation that forces both Apple and Google to be consumer friendly.
Nothing would prevent you from communicating with a Graphene OS phone. It's a smartphone OS, not compiling Arch here...
But use whatever excuse you can find to stay in the Apple ecosystem, that's fine.
Just buy a Fairphone from Murena with /e/OS preinstalled. You don't have to do anything yourself. It mainly works like a phone without any issues, all the features I need work on it and I didn't have to install it manually and supported the devs
Never too late to switch to GrapheneOS.
I can't unlock my bootloader so i'm fucked.
I am in it for not too long, I wanted a Framework notebook but they didn't sell in my country so I couldn't purchase it through my business so I went with macbook and iphone next to because, why not.
I generally don't care much about things like in the op news tbh, as if I have a subscription for something I use it directly from the website
And stuff like the seemless integration when switching from my phone to my MacBook with my airpods is fucking great.
but I am not a normal techie, I am waaay overindexed on user experience over a lot of things, for example I pay for spotify because the Ux is great for me, I refuse to pay for streaming devices because my own plex/jellyfin server is a much better UX.
I am also refusing to buy cars without physical buttons.
They already caved.
On Wednesday, Patreon said Apple has renewed its requirement that all Patreon creators must move to subscription billing. The deadline to do so is November 1, 2026.
My Source: https://www.engadget.com/...
It's silly that they don't just operate from the browser. It's how I use Patreon on my (admittedly not iPhone) Phone.
They should have just pulled Patreon from the app store.
It's not like it's such an impediment to ask users to use their browser.
In an ideal world we would not have monopolies controlling app stores, but I think Patreon is really stupid for not just abandoning the app store.
I really think this move blows and I wish they would reverse this decision and make an exception.
However Tim Cook didn’t wake up one day and wonder how he could fuck creators. Apple takes a 30% cut of all app transactions. This is how they benefit from the enormous and highly successful app platform and ecosystem they created. It’s not pure evil to say “hey use this platform all you want but you must share some of what you make there with us.”
It does suck that they won’t let creators off the hook though. This is like taxing rips.
The platform is enormous and highly successful solely because it is a monopoly in the Apple ecosystem
I guarantee you if other app stores were allowed on Apple devices, they would take significant market share with a far smaller cut of revenue
We can safely assume that alternative app stores would have less effect on iOS than they have on Android, where Google desperately wants others to step in and develop their ecosystem. And they aren’t very significant on Android at all. I tried distributing my app on Samsung Galaxy in addition to GPlay and despite its preferential positioning with the world’s largest phone maker, I got peanuts for installs. Not even a rounding error. I literally took the app down. Oh and then Xiaomi got banned from the SDK and they stole my APK for their third party app store and began sending me bug reports about how it was “broken” there. Ah yes the power and glory of alternative app stores… Apple are wise not to dump this cesspit into their ecosystem, which people love because all they want is one decent, unified default that works well.
Why does Apple feel they deserve a 30% cut? In cases like this, Apple aren't providing any value at all.
- Apple aren't providing the content - the creator is.
- Apple aren't providing a platform for the content - Patreon is.
- Apple aren't providing a platform for discovery - people aren't finding Patreon creators solely via Apple products.
Sure, Apple are providing a payments platform, but why do they deserve 10x what Stripe charges?
It's just platform-milking, just like Meetup.com's latest antics; there isn't deep analysis needed to everything, haha. "Capitalism" is totally a legitimate answer despite being just one word.
Meetup is now owned by Bending Spoons, who have also enshittified wetransfer, Evernote, eventbrite, AOL, vimeo. They buy decent products that never exploded to ipo status, fire everyone and milk the rest for whatever they can charge.
Why does one company need to own meetup and eventbrite?
Is that not a monopoly? How does it not violate any anti-trust laws?
Edit to add: how long before we see a fediverse events app?
You got a link to what meetup has been up to?
I, too, am interested in hearing about these supposed shenanigans.
No, but I used to be more active until I saw that they started to increasingly prevent you from talking to other participants, and even seeing who other people are (can't even tell gender or anything) unless you paid for their higher tier. I literally saw it get added out of the blue after years of no such restrictions, and they've only dug deeper and deeper. I couldn't even connect with someone with whom I met just because I didn't attempt to get their number immediately on the spot.
Thank you. I havent used meetup in 10 or so years. Cant remember paid features then. People also had a profile, with a picture, so as you could see interests and groups they were part of, there was also a message board for the group and messaging members wasnt an issue. Sad to see what its become.
I dunno, I left a couple years ago after they stopped providing .ics, started spamming our members that we were paying for, and then refused to provide us with the emails of our members.
Just join a group, and you'll see. It's so goddamn scummy and nickel/diming.
They were sued by Epic Games for the same shit and Epic won on one count which allows them to put links to alternative payment methods and go around Apple.
So couldn't patreon just argue in court that this precedent was already set with epic?
I'm just wondering then why Apple would even push this if a president was already set with Epic. What a bunch of greedy corporate bastards.
You can make the subscription through the website on the phone just as well and not pay the cut to apple.
Most likely the app exists just because people don't know how to type patreon.com into the browser anymore
Full functionality is available on the web AFAIK. And if you subscribe on the web, there's no Apple cut, but you can still use the app to see said content.
It's an inconvenience, but a super easy one to get past and not exclusive to Patreon so a trick any Apple users should know anyway if they enjoy paying subscriptions for things (Netflix, Spotify, whatever)
I too assume the Patreon App doesn't do anything that cannot be done on their web page. I can imagine there are good dev reasons but also bad incentives to make it an app.
I am biased against Apple as I like being the one in control of my hardware/software.. but is it a stretch to say Apple influence their users to use apps instead of web pages (so they can rent-seek a cut)?
And fixing this problem is going to require a similar attitude from the people tired of this.
We need to rep our interests as ruthlessly and as sophisticatedly as our enemies.
Because apple is a "premium" product, so you have to pay a "premium" fee for normal stuff so it feels like you're using "premium" services
But you're paying more, so it's "premium" content, clearly.
gotta get the money to bribe trump somehow
Just pass on the cost of the corruption to the consumer, as usual. It's the Corruption Tax.
This sums the problem up fairly nicely I think. I do wonder with Apple being a gatekeeper by EUs own definition and unfair sales terms supposed to be history with the Digital Markets Act in place this can't go through, right?!?! at least not in the EU... assuming they do their job.
Apple also gets money from developers who use their platform already. That should be it.
Apple will already bully small developers off their platform while giving bigger companies first-class treatment.
Lack of competition. No other app store is allowed to operate on Apple devices. They have a monopoly, which is the only reason they can charge as much as they do
Sure, Apple are providing a payments platform, but why do they deserve 10x what Stripe charges?
I don't believe that 30% cut includes payment processing. That's an additional fee
Sad to think about how little creators actually get at the end of the day. Example of a $100 donation/subscription:
Apple takes 30%
Card companies take ~4%
Patreon takes 10%
Taxes take another big chunk
After all that a the creator would have, what, $40?
No other app store is allowed to operate on Apple devices
That's only true outside of Europe. In the EU, they were forced to allow third-party app stores. The US government doesn't have the guts to do that, since they focus more on the needs/wants of companies, whereas the EU is really focused on consumer rights.
- Card companies take ~4%
- Patreon takes 10%
Does Patreon's cut not include payment processing?
The other thing that's ridiculous in the USA is how much credit card processing costs. Stripe is around 3%, while in countries it can be half of that (in Australia, it's commonly around 1% for debit cards and 1.5% for credit cards).
This is THE way that Apple gets any revenue from the enormous and highly successful app platform and ecosystem they created. They say “go nuts, make money on our platform, but share some with us in exchange for our maintaining that platform.” This is reasonable. Apple is providing a service to Patreon, and access to their tremendous user base. That ain’t nothing.
I agree that subjecting creator donations to the 30% is about the shittiest use case for this and I wish they would make an exception. But your post about how Apple is doing absolutely nothing here is garbage.
I suspect this has more to do with closing a loophole than going after Patreon and only Patreon.
People don’t have to subscribe through the app. and Patreon don’t have to offer that functionality in the App. Apple don’t have Patreon locked in to their platform.
Why does Apple feel they deserve a 30% cut?
Because they can. Time and time again, useful idiots have proven their dipshittery by sucking off the people taking them for a ride.
A main tenant of business decisions is to fuck over your customers as hard as they're willing to be fucked. Since nobody has any standards these days, corporations make a killing.
I hope Patreon will just switch off the ability to pay through the iOS app, along with a nice fuck you-message to Apple that pops up when you first open the app
Last time this came up Patreon simply allowed the creators to charge the commission directly on top of the price for non apple users, or eat the 30% loss. So everyone not using iOS would pay, say, $5/month, iOS users would pay $5+30%. Hope they retain that option.
That's actually a good solution
Is it? Previously this was considered tips
Now it’s 30% for what? Running a payment gateway and hiding an unsubscribe button deep in the App Store UI.
Competitively payment gateways charge 1-3%, but when you lock down a platform you can charge 10x that.
Yeah, I remember cause my Patreon account asked me what I wanted to do about apple trying to steal my money
p.s. I never push Patreon so have no subs lol
Not that good, the backlash was immense and if I remember right, people were dropping patreon subs over it.
EDIT: I might also not be remembering right. The thing I'm thinking of was an additional fee regardless of what platform you used to access Patreon.
It’s logical but it probably scares away some customers. That’s why the “just eat it” option exists. iOS gives you access to an enormous market and payments are slick and easy. Creators may want $5 but if they can get 30% less from 500% more people, it’s still a good business for them. There’s no strict reason why they must obsess over taking 100% of the sticker price. There are a million examples of businesses who are willing to accept a discount for high volume business.
Ya a few apps already do this. YouTube premium does for sure and I have heard a few others doing so.
I don't remember the math, there was a button to charge apple users more so we got what we were supposed to
Isn't it against the law in many places to charge customers without providing a breakdown of what they're being charged with?
Ok...and?
I was actually curious how this currently works as I've never used the Patreon app, so thanks for that. I'm sure it's a nice convenience to be able to transact through the app, but not 30% passive Apple income levels of nice. It's too bad they are stuck in their flat-rate commission model, because alienating third-party developers and businesses in this manner will kill their ecosystem.
Can any current creators on Patreon provide some insight into how the revenue streams break down between the iOS/Android app platforms versus the website? What impact do you foresee if instead of a payment option in the app it simply directs you to the website?
It reminds me of gas stations that only accept ATM cards and not credit cards, because they don’t want to lose the 3% that credit card companies take per transaction. They’re trying not to lose that 3%, but it will inconvenience some customers and lose them some business. That could easily be worse than 3%.
So yes Patreon could say “go find a laptop and enter your credit card number in our web page” but there are people who won’t do all that because they expect to be able to pay with one tap. And businesses are on the AppStore because that great payment experience makes it super easy for them to convert customers.
It’s just not as straightforward as saying “fuck you Apple, I’ll take my business elsewhere.”
That’s how the system works. You don’t expect Walmart to not get a commission when you sell something at their store.
30% is reasonable. DEAL WITH IT.
Don’t like it? Make your own phone and platform.
Opening up the comments on macrumors never disappoints me :)
its also not how it works... at all. walmart would buy wholesale from a supplier not directly from the seller
Apple is being terrible here, but Walmart now has an amazon-like storefront where third parties can list their own products basically entirely apart from Walmart but using their site. Not sure what the percent cut Walmart takes is, but Walmart might never actually buy from a company selling on their site.
Apple is reselling services, just like Walmart wholesales products, clearly
The bigger the asset, the more sacrosanct are that asset's interests.
That is a system of nearly unlimited milking of anyone who is not themselves represented through a multi-hundred billion dollar asset.
Fighting this in the business or legal arena is a complete waste of time. Those battlefields are favorable to the biggest assets.
What exactly does Apple think that they're brining to the equation in order to deserve that 30? Is it simply that they're hosting an app on their store, so therefore they're entitled to a cut?
So if I write a novel, and get it published, Microsoft can say "We deserve 30% because you used our product to produce your product?
I'm so fucking tired of corporations. It's well past guillotine-o-clock.
What exactly does Apple think that they’re brining to the equation in order to deserve that 30?
Because Valve can and Tim wants his yachts. No one is gonna stop em either. The App Store and Steam are the same thing: Store fronts that sell other peoples goods. You may say that Steam is just an app—don't tell me, tell your representatives
You may say that Steam is just an app—don’t tell me, tell your representatives
Tell your representatives, not me. According to our representatives, what Apple has is not a monopoly. You don't have to convince me, you have to convince them. If you truly care about this issue, vote accordingly.
Why are you booing them, they're right.
There is a vocal subset of people on the Fediverse who truly believe that Steam, Valve, and Gabe can no do wrong. Completely, forgetting that Valve and Gabe are both worth billions of dollars. That Steam fits the legal defintion of a monopoly because Steam controls such a massive part of the market.
I was talking to the people downvoting, the comment was in the negative at the time I typed mine
It's a little different though. Valve is providing the actual platform, and running it. Apple doesn't own Patreon, they simply host a client.
They're bringing the apple tax to the table
It's a holdover from retail where had to physically hold your product and had limited space.
Now, the shareholders demand even more money and Apple has complete control on the OS and they are signaling that you can't do shit and they will take whatever they want.
They can fight anyone in courts, and as long as the laws have no teeth, they will get away with it.
What exactly does Apple think that they’re brining to the equation in order to deserve that 30?
Apple users are some of the dumbest people on the planet. Most of them will gleefully support paying more to make the company richer.
Well call it tithe for your digital overlord.
God only asks for 10%... shows you what Apple thinks of themselves.
Apple charges 30% when you sell digital goods within an app. That's not the same as moving money in your bank account or buying something on eBay.
It's still robbery, but it's not the same.
When people subscribe, they typically get something digital in return on Patreon.
Does eBay sell digital goods?
I'd kinda expect the answer to be yes if so if you use the ebay app? If not, I'm actually surprised.
Why isn't Apple trying to take 30% of all purchases through the Amazon app? Or eBay? Or your local grocery delivery? It's the same exact thing. Such a stupid greedy fucking attempt
funny thing they are refugees from YouTube when they started to demand more percentage of their ad revenue. since then they rely on brand deal and promotions directly from companies.
I think they’re trying to kill Patreon for some reason. Maybe they’ll launch their own Patreon competitor? Maybe they noticed developers were giving away iOS apps and getting crowdfunded on Patreon?
Iirc it has to do with “monthly subscriptions” and they are arguing that Patreon is a monthly subscription and those get charged at the higher amount.
It’s why subscribing to YouTube premium within iOS app costs more because Google just makes up the difference that way.
Not that’s it’s right but it’s really debatable if Patreon should be considered a monthly subscription the same way streaming services are.
It’s why subscribing to YouTube premium within iOS app costs more because Google just makes up the difference that way.
I wish more businesses would do this. If a middleman is taking a cut, make it crystal clear to your customers.
This is my biggest gripe with Steam, for example. Valve can do 30% if they want, but dictating minimum prices on other stores that have nothing to do with Steam is just monopolistic.
Yeah, it's certainly not the same thing. The creators set the terms as they please.
If I was on Patreon I'd tell them to pull the app. Fuck em they have a website.
Right? You'd think Patreon would throw their weight against Apple, as this is clearly not in their best interest. Threaten to pull the app, and if Apple follows through, they get nothing. Alternatively, move payments entirely outside of the app and force Apple to either do something which is guaranteed to be extremely unpopular, or call their bluff. But they won't do these things or even try to negotiate Apple's cut.
Apple may appear to swing the biggest dick here, but I am so disgusted by these weak companies just immediately bending over without a fight.
As always, it's the creators who will be faced with hardship, but neither entity seems to give a shit.
Is It better for patreon to lose 30% of income from Apple pay, or to have Apple users not being able to pay unless they open the webpage and pay from there? Is it better for them to remove the app altogether and have users on Apple forced to use it through the website?
I'd imagine they'd lose quite a bit of subscriptions if they did that. Is that more or less than 30% is something I don't know.
They could go on the offensive with messaging and get subscribers to apply pressure on Apple to keep things the same... Would it work? Probably not, but it might get some of the Apple users onside.
Is it better for them to remove the app altogether and have users on Apple forced to use it through the website?
Yes. Clearly yes, for everyone. This sort of shit only continues because people don't do that.
I would imagine this would lead to having less users. Or people that use it less. It would also make the experience for users worse. As such it would lead to less subscriptions. It is not clear to me that this would be better. I'm not sure on whether it would be worse, but I doubt it'd be better for everyone.
And there goes your engagement.
Apples got them, and Apple knows it.
You can already pay on the website. If you pay through Apple Pay and therefore pay the extra 30%, that's kinda on you at this point.
Cunt move by Apple, but the in-app purchase payment processing going through apple only rule has been there for a long ass time, Patreon got pretty lucky that they were given so much leeway for so long.
the patreon influencers just need to warn to pay through the website.
It's wild that Steam is getting a class action lawsuit for charging 30% right now, and Apple doing shit like this at the same percentage and legally is getting a free pass.
I'll throw a hat in the ring here. It's because Steam has a grip on the gaming market that others want instead of them. That's it, they want that money instead of Valve. Apple is getting a pass on this because it's just fucking over the common guy which businesses couldn't care less about.
I was trying to avoid the monopoly complaint because it's bogus for the reason you said. The truth, Valve has a massive market share and people are very used to Steam, tied to it in many cases. Other publishers tried to set out on their own with their own store fronts and most of those have utterly failed. Even Epic still sells their games on Steam. It's a powerful market with a lot of brand loyalty that those companies really do want themselves.
Fair.
Other than the "not actually a monopoly" argument, I think it's important that Steam has that marketshare because they add value. They have a stranglehold on the market similar to the way BarCodes do. You don't have to register your product with the bar code authority, but it will sure make your product more accessible to more people.
And that's before cloud saves, achievements, patching infrastructure, community forums, game recording/streaming, and other stuff built into the Steam client/API.
Whether that's worth a blanket 30% is absolutely a conversation worth having. Maybe it should be a sliding / bracketed scale depending on revenue or units sold or something. But like you said, the big lawsuits are coming from competitors, not smaller developers.
True, but nobody is bound by it. There are other ways to sell on PC, there are no other ways to sell on iPhone. And games bought elsewhere will work just fine on a PC that has Steam installed. Anyone can leave at any time, or buy from anywhere. The only way to do that on iPhone is to switch your entire phone with Android. Apple's position on the iPhone is far more controlling and monopolistic than Steam's on PC.
The Steam tax might be too steep as well, but these are not identical situations. It's far easier to avoid Steam if you don't want it. I prefer to buy from GOG, and only buy from Steam when it's cheaper or not available on GOG.
Huh? It's the businesses that will suffer from that 30% tax. It's like suddenly seeing your Netflix subscription being more expensive and that triggers this "do I even need it anymore?" evaluation
If it costs 13€ to support a 10€ Patreon pledge, then how do you expect the company to cover for that? Paying the creator less? Still, that will spawn competition, which again hurts the business
Huh? It’s the businesses that will suffer from that 30% tax. It’s like suddenly seeing your Netflix subscription being more expensive and that triggers this “do I even need it anymore?” evaluation
Has been this way for a long time. You pay through Apple, you pay more. You pay on the website, you pay the regular fee.
If it costs 13€ to support a 10€ Patreon pledge, then how do you expect the company to cover for that? Paying the creator less? Still, that will spawn competition, which again hurts the business
The creators are the ones who choose how they handle this. Either charge their 10€ tier as ~ 14.29€ or receive 7€ instead of 10€ when it comes to Apple users.
The businesses ain't gonna suffer shit.
Right, but Valve is actually providing the service and infrastructure. Apple is not.
They are, I'm not arguing against Valve or for Apple. I'm explaining that business people want moar money and don't like it when someone else makes it when they could.
Apple doesn't allow this - they expect your price to be the same everywhere or they'll remove the app from their store or decline version updates. There have historically been a few high profile exceptions privately negotiated, and I think they were forced to relax this in the last year or two, but here they are again trying to claw away money they did literally nothing to earn.
Instagram puts way more than 30% on their ads when purchasing through iOS
If you buy 100€ of ad budget, they want you to pay an additional 42.5% apple service fee and additional taxes here in Germany.
If I do it through their ad center suddenly the taxes are already included in the budget so if I pay 100€ I get 100€. So in the end, Meta charges iOS users an additional 70% vs what they usually charge.
Are you purchasing ad space through Meta or Apple in the no fee scenario?
I have an app which reduces the quality of the app for apple users to force them to subscribe more than Android users.
The price is the same, but on android there's no limit to the number of saves you can keep whereas Apple has a limit of 5 and you need to Subscribe at $30/year to unlock more saves.
You're not correct on the "same price" thing. Yes, Apple declined version updates, but it's because they don't want apps to tell the user to go to the website, they don't care about a price match.
You're definitely right about them prohibiting devs from pointing to a web browser to subscribe. They can't link, can't even use language that explains WHY you can't subscribe in the app (if the dev decides to forego using Apples payment system entirely). I think that THIS was what Apple recently was forced by a judge to relax, after the Apple v Epic case.
I must have been conflating the policy that they ABSOLUTELY did have (but only til 2011) and the outside links issue. Hughes Hubbard
Under the February rules, if developers wanted to use content purchased outside of the app, they also had to offer the content for in-app purchase and it had to be offered at the same price or less than it was offered elsewhere, despite the fact that Apple takes a 30% cut.
Apple has quietly changed its guidelines on the pricing of In-App Subscriptions on the App Store. There are no longer any requirements that a subscription be the "same price or less than it is offered outside the app".
Patreon gives creators the option to either increase their prices in the iOS app only, or absorb the fee themselves, keeping prices the same across platforms.
It's already an option and if you read the article, only 4% are still on the legacy billing system (no Apple tax at all)
iOS users using a browser don't pay the Apple Tax. And the only reason to pay through the app is if you specifically want to use Apple Pay (e.g to pay with your phone bill instead of your credit card).
At this point it's a "stupid tax" more than anything.
That's why I used e.g instead of i.e :) That's one use case for Apple Pay that you can't get from the website. Another would be that you don't share your card details with whoever Patreon's payment processor is - which might make sense if you trust Apple more than some particular processor
They would all be screaming shut up and take my money.
Think. Of. The. Shareholders.
Do you have enough shares for your vote to mean anything?
Willing to sell those shares?
No
Terribly need degoogled android to become popular and/or a normal Linux distribution phone to become popular so that normal Linux market share couldn’t be ignored
I had no idea Apple was so desperate for money
3.78 Trillion dollar market cap. You don't get to that valuation by being generous to your customers. Apple is as capitalist as any of them. They're just wrapped in shiny marketing. Now only if their fans understood that.
Gotta love walled gardens! /s
I didn't even know there was a Patreon app. I signed up through the website. On a computer. Old school.
Fuck patron. Fuck you Tim Apple. Fuck you both
What's wrong with Patreon? They advertise a 10% fee. It may be a little more complicated than that but 10% seems pretty reasonable considering the services they offer.
They are an American tech company.
From what I remember, they did try to heavily raise fees and worsen the experience on their platform "my next trillion users ... life changing blah blah .. my ARPU", but then backed off when they got public pushback. They will do it again when they think they can get away with it.
Better to use something like liberapay.
That's what I use to donate to Piefed development and I've been meaning try and pitch this platform to my Patreon list.
Fair enough
How is 10% reasonable. They just transfer money from A to B while showing people some static html text about the options. They basically do nothing.
I wouldn’t say these services are nothing. Are they worth 10%? Eh.
A 90/10 split for content creators who otherwise wouldn’t know how to build and operate their own platform doesn’t sound like a terrible deal. It’s not amazing but if there were better options, Patreon may not be so popular.
Edit: I want to clarify. Patreon is a for profit company who has apparently tried raising prices already and back tracked. Eventually, Patreon will try and squeeze out more profit from the creators and the user base will be big enough that Patreon will have the leverage to do so; we’ve all seen it before. I’m not saying Patreon is a good company, I’m not saying they won’t be dicks in the future, I’m not saying the system as it is, is good. I’m only saying 10% isn’t a bad deal when so many other options are worse (ex. Apple taking 30%)
It's always getting fleeced with you guys and being fine with slightly less fleecing, when that is just a way to entice and reach a point where they can monopolize the market and fleece like the big dogs.
And then a new company with slightly less fleecing appears, with board members from previous company.
Rinse and repeat.
static HTML text, and all of the posts, and images, and audio that they host. not saying that deserves 10% but saying that they do nothing other than payment processing is disingenuous
I’d love to but it’s a chicken and egg thing. Regular people don’t understand bitcoin let alone monero. On top of that, you still have fees for converting from a currency to monero and again from monero to a currency, so there’s still a middle man :/
he did give trump a shitty gold trophy to trump.
Technofeudalism.
They still have wicked hardware, nobody is near their M5 performance/watt though
It’s just that there are only a few companies that sell products that apple also sells
Right, the alternatives are sooooooooooo much better.
Googles track record is on point , android for the win. (/s)
Getting rid of Apple entirely would be like removing Coke from the beverage marketplace. It just allows the competition to worsen and consumer choice to be less.
Apple > Google as a company in every moral category
I didn't think it would be such a stretch to say Coke > Pepsi but whatever bro. Apple is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy less intrusive and integrated into the American government than Google.
Google may as well be state sanctioned with how much they're integrated with American military and as American spyware. So if those are the only choices for most people then yeah, I'd absolutely defend Apple over Google.
Don't worry, I'll catch the next bandwagon.
>=
They are both shit.
I like Grapheneos.
kinda like how youtube takes massive cut of ad revenue, which is why they switch to patreon, brand deal and promotions. 30% is pretty steep for small content creators, that isnt peddling right wing grifting.
These Silicon Valley parasites are taking way more than a fair share. Every industry is Consolidated and the few gatekeeping corporations left take more than their fair share that is the entire problem. Capitalism does not work without controls. Never has, never will. This absolute free market talk has always been ad hoc, to further the business interests of those making the arguments.
Choose another payment method. Choose another platform - web based? - where these fees don't apply. Hell, buy a throwaway droid phone to keep your money from apple's greedy hands.
Google imposes the same restriction, if you buy a digital service (such as a Patreon subscription) you need to pay the Google tax.
I don't know if Patreon got an exemption from Google, but any smaller developer doesn't for sure.
YT influencers fled to patreon because of google doing the same thing.
More people will be forced to use other platforms like subscribe star and pixiv fanbox
Yes it has, but now, all of our consumer protections have been obliterated
Companies whose profits are taken sue Apple for not only lost revenue but also punitive damages.
Yes, it has. And Apple (mostly) won.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games_v._Apple
In January 2024, the Supreme Court denied the full appeals of both Apple and Epic in the case, leaving the case primarily a victory for Apple in allowing them to continue restricting app distribution to their App Store and to continue restricting in-app purchases to Apple's payment systems, but requiring Apple to allow developers to link to external websites offering alternate payment options (off-app purchases).
Makes me think why ever since Photoshop was first created, Apple became the go-to for creatives for decades, and now Apple thinks it wants more money than just the fanatics going after their latest product.
Apple screwed their pro market anyway. Sometime back . The history with apple and creatives relates more to print history I’d guess . Adobe needs to be ditched , and is in some areas. Windows is a shitshow as we know. There are lessening reasons to be wedded to either Mac OS or Windows as they continue to enshittify and I for one welcome it.
Parasitic Tech must end. It's supposed to help us, not spy on us and steal from us.
I've been warned many times in the past to not subscribe to people on the patreon app since it costs more then in browser because of the app store's cut. So is this just even worse then it was or was that just for the google play store before?
Ya I always subscribe on the website. Google and Apple have both charged extra fees for monthly subscriptions bought within the app.
@Sine_Fine_Belli 😡 Tim Cook is a bad man. Do not federate with him!
That’s why we need rules and regulation around gatekeeper platforms like iOS and android. If both demand 30% there is no choice not to pay in certain circumstances.
How does everyone feel about the googs announcing an end to side loading?
Not good.
There have been countless threads on the subject.
https://lemmy.world/post/42124818
https://mander.xyz/post/45953148
https://sh.itjust.works/post/46320374
https://reddthat.com/post/49485312
And so on. Sorry for the non instance-agnostic links.
I think it's being worked on natively but for now there's tools such as Lemmy verse link
Thats exactly how it works for twitch and other stuff. If you're on mobile go to the website instead of the app otherwise they take a cut
Apple users BTFO
Sadly, I'm guessing this is transparent to iOS users, they think they're supporting creators with $X each month, but behind the scenes, the creator is getting $X * 0.7 and then I'm guessing Patreon also takes some off the top of that for their infrastructure.
This is why you can't subscribe to Spotify or Netflix or a ton of other services through the app store apps, they aren't gonna give up 30% revenue. Patreon is going to be the same eventually, creators will take it as a last resort, but they'll absolutely scream "go to the website to donate to me," or maybe even disable iOS app contributions.
Kind of like how the nonprofits I've been part of have to pay a CC processing fee which varies by processor and card, so they don't accept AMEX or Discover cards, and then stress "please send us a check instead," and if a donation is over a certain amount, they won't accept it by CC at all. If you're going to donate $30k or $100k or more, no fucking way are we giving thousands of dollars to a processor. Write us a check, we'll accept it in person, and take a photo of us fellating you, suitable for framing.
No, you need an alternative to apps in the Apple app store, which already exist. Don't pay for anything through an app on an Apple device, they will rob the creator. Pay through the Patreon web site.
Liberapay, Kofi
Subscribe star and pixiv fanbox
It's all about control of reach.
If I was an influencer and using Patreon (I'm neither), it's a simple decision:
Total reach * conversion rate * platform commission = income
Apple's app store has a fuckton of desirable reach - they monopolize (arguably literally) all the easy payments from iphones and kill anybody else who tries to redirect eyeballs. They are too strong. But what else are you going to do if you need Patreons or app customers, etc?
You can't ignore the reach, and you'd have to pay or work harder to get eyeballs another way too unless you can get free publicity by being crazy or something and pull people into your own payment/ download channels.
You aren't gaining reach by having your current followers gain a payment fee.
It's just something you don't have a say in.
I thought Epic won this lawsuit though.
Once they are following, I'd think you can begin to convert them to higher tiers of support through private channels?
@Ron @Sine_Fine_Belli bezos is the amazon guy... but they booth need probably
I'm surprised this wasn't already the case, how did patreon get an exception in the first place? I don't know anything about how apple billing with patreon works but the way this sounds is that patreon's "Legacy Billing" somehow allows creators to get around the 30% fee that is normally standard to anything on apple, and the means to enable/disable this feature is entirely in the hands of individual creators rather than patreon or apple, weird.
Most of you would applaud if this was gaben.
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To make this clear: Patreon is a platform mainly used by creators, artists, musicians to get a reliable income directly from their fans. Apple is trying to steal 30% of the income of our favorite artists.
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