Signal Founder Moxie Marlinspike: Telegram is not private. There is nothing private about it. They've done a really amazing job of convincing the world that this is an encrypted messaging app

8 months ago by Wudi to c/privacy

“Telegram is not a private messenger. There’s nothing private about it. It’s the opposite. It’s a cloud messenger where every message you’ve ever sent or received is in plain text in a database that Telegram the organization controls and has access to it”

“It’s like a Russian oligarch starting an unencrypted version of WhatsApp, a pixel for pixel clone of WhatsApp. That should be kind of a difficult brand to operate. Somehow, they’ve done a really amazing job of convincing the whole world that this is an encrypted messaging app and that the founder is some kind of Russian dissident, even though he goes there once a month, the whole team lives in Russia, and their families are there.”

" What happened in France is they just chose not to respond to the subpoena. So that’s in violation of the law. And, he gets arrested in France, right? And everyone’s like, oh, France. But I think the key point is they have the data, like they can respond to the subpoenas where as Signal, for instance, doesn’t have access to the data and couldn’t respond to that same request. To me it’s very obvious that Russia would’ve had a much less polite version of that conversation with Pavel Durov and the telegram team before this moment"

user_name 206 points 8 months ago

Why is this interview happening inside a sauna?

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JoMiran 101 points 8 months ago

She likes putting guests on the hot seat.

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xela 58 points 8 months ago

If you watch the video - its explained starting at 1:13, Moxie built it himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPRi7mAGp7I

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Saapas 11 points 8 months ago

That's fucking awesome

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nomy 1 point 8 months ago

Moxie might not be right on every issue and might even be a part-time fed but his bona fides are impeccable

Dude is an OG from WAY back, used to frequent EFnet in the 90s and was already "elite" then.

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Wudi 28 points 8 months ago

Why is this interview happening inside a sauna?

It's his personal sauna. He built it himself.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DNV-qUfPZJ0/?hl=en

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0x0 29 points 8 months ago

Why did he invite the hot reporter chick to his sauna? would be the follow-up question...

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bamboo 47 points 8 months ago

It's a sauna on a boat. She's out in the middle of nowhere with some dude she barely knows. You know, she looks around and what does she see? Nothin' but open ocean.

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Ulrich 44 points 8 months ago

Because of the implication...

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desertdruid 16 points 8 months ago

it's the D.E.N.N.I.S. system working

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selokichtli 5 points 8 months ago

That explains that awkward interaction in the interview. It's like an interview happening in the Black Lodge.

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flying_sheep 14 points 8 months ago

If I had a personal sauna, I'd invite everyone. But I'm not from puritan central (USA) so that might be a foreign concept to some readers.

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MrSoup 12 points 8 months ago

You answered yourself.

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TropicalDingdong 26 points 8 months ago

Right? If they're just chatting this should be happening in a jacuzzi with nice glasses of milk 🍼 👍

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SlurpingPus 13 points 8 months ago

Somehow all these years I thought that Marlinspike is either Swedish or Finnish, so the sauna would be on brand.

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rumba 12 points 8 months ago

for the thumbnail :)

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fierysparrow89 11 points 8 months ago

Why not? I thought it was een interesting choice ;-P

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jellyfishhunter 4 points 8 months ago

Like in a sauna you should be completely exposed or something

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socsa 17 points 8 months ago

They say the trick to public speaking is to picture the audience naked, but I actually prefer to do my interviews in a sauna so the audience pictures me naked.

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Jankatarch 1 point 8 months ago

What

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selokichtli 4 points 8 months ago

To me, that is just clickbait.

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somegeek 144 points 8 months ago

Dude for the first 15s I thought this is porn

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marcie 43 points 8 months ago

its the sauna

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Saapas 36 points 8 months ago

How I hate that saunas are associated with porn and sex. It's not supposed to be sexual and more importantly it's an awful, just terrible place to have sex

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Markus29 7 points 8 months ago

I don't know man, those benches are nice for a variety of positions. Plus, you are already naked..

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Saapas 30 points 8 months ago

Just trust me on this one, 80'C+ room just isn't the place for that sort of exercise. And it's not like your heart rate isn't up already lol. It's a terrible experience

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funbreaker 10 points 8 months ago

you are gonna feel way too gross in the sauna to wanna have sex

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Saapas 27 points 8 months ago

Raising money for Signal with OnlyFans

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yogthos 98 points 8 months ago

It's also important to continue educating people about the fact that Signal is incredibly problematic as well, but not in the way most people think.

The issue with Signal is that your phone number is metadata. And people who think metadata is "just" data or that cross-referencing is some kind of sci-fi nonsense, are fundamentally misunderstanding how modern surveillance works.

By requiring phone numbers, Signal, despite its good encryption, inherently builds a social graph. The server operators, or anyone who gets that data, can see a map of who is talking to whom. The content is secure, but the connections are not.

Being able to map out who talks to whom is incredibly valuable. A three-letter agency can take the map of connections and overlay it with all the other data they vacuum up from other sources, such as location data, purchase histories, social media activity. If you become a "person of interest" for any reason, they instantly have your entire social circle mapped out.

Worse, the act of seeking out encrypted communication is itself a red flag. It's a perfect filter: "Show me everyone paranoid enough to use crypto." You're basically raising your hand.

So, in a twisted way, Signal being a tool for private conversations, makes it a perfect machine for mapping associations and identifying targets. The fact that Signal is operated centrally with the server located in the US, and it's being developed by people with connections to US intelligence while being constantly pushed as the best solution for private communication should give everyone a pause.

The kicker is that thanks to gag orders, companies are legally forbidden from telling you if the feds come knocking for this data. So even if Signal's intentions are pure, we'd never know how the data it collects is being used. The potential for abuse is baked right into the phone-number requirement.

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Trilogy3452 50 points 8 months ago

Opinion: I think painting in Signal in such negative light is more harmful in the practical sense. Having fragmented messaging towards the public that does not care about many of these aspects just makes them a lot more hesitant to change, from my perspective.

We as a community should, in my opinion, pick a "good enough" solution for the majority of the people we interact with. That in itself is a market force to show interest and demand for private solutions. Most people I know don't have the tools or knowledge or time to understand nuances and all they'll hear are conflicting messages.

For us more technically inclined people: hell yeah, let's figure out the ideal model and bring it up to maturity so others can join when it's fleshed out. E.g. when lemmy came to my attention in the reddit 3rd party app fiasco, I was really confused on how to sign up and use it. And I'm no stranger to tech.

Edit: spelling

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ProdigalFrog 15 points 8 months ago

We as a community should, in my opinion, pick a “good enough” solution for the majority of the people we interact with.

I'd probably suggest Deltachat. It's decentralized and has always on encryption, but is so incredibly simple and easy to onboard and use, and doesn't require a phone number or even an email. It also works on all platforms with a single app.

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WhyJiffie 5 points 8 months ago

and doesn't require a phone number or even an email

wait, doesn't it rely on the email system?

I would rather have signal possibly collect my social graph than google through gmail.

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ProdigalFrog 5 points 8 months ago

It uses a subset of the email protocol (which makes it very difficult for governments to block) but it no longer uses an an actual email address to function by default.

Even if someone did use a gmail exclusively for this (you can't use it with an email account you use for normal emails too), everything would be entirely encrypted, and only the app itself would be able to decrypt it (google would not be able to decrypt the messages). But again, no normal user is going to use an actual email address.

You can read more about how it works in their FAQ. But the short version is once you pick a username, it just gives you a QR code or link to send to people, which connects you immediately in an encrypted chat room with no faffing around with emails.

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yogthos 2 points 8 months ago

There are plenty of good enough options like SimpleX Chat out there that don't have this problem. The whole argument that people should just ignore the obvious issue with Signal is frankly weird.

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Trilogy3452 7 points 8 months ago

Accept defects != ignore

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yogthos 8 points 8 months ago

My original comment that you replied to was explaining the defects. People are free to decide whether they want to accept them or not. Your comment is saying that it's harmful to discuss these defects which implies that we should just ignore them.

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pivot_root 30 points 8 months ago

Apparently they don't store contact info.

https://signal.org/...

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yogthos 34 points 8 months ago

The problem is that you just have to trust them because only people who actually operate the server know what they do or do not store. Trust me bro, is not a viable security model. As a rule, you have to assume that any info an app collects, such as your phone number, can now be used in adversarial fashion against you.

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0_o7 12 points 8 months ago

Yeah there's a reason they don't allow you to use your own self hosted server.

People just accepting what companies say is how we ended up in the current mess. But here we are again. Companies work around how people perceive things to be secure and private all the time. It's just one small cog in the big machine.

It's how some NGOs are part of a intelligence and surveillance network but people only focus on the social work and it becomes immoral to criticize the good things they do as a cover.

There's also reluctance to release it in f-droid. They say they want to becontrol the distribution, but they have no problem with Apple and Google being the main distribution platforms. They haven't even looked at unified push. And that just adds to the "there's something else going on" factors.

Signal protocol might be bullet proof but the app supplier, centralized server, and phone number requirement and the most mainstream OS aren't. When you combine with how mainstream OS companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google work together with the feds, there's ways that the bulletproof protocol may not be sufficient and is only a part of the bigger picture. There's also US government spying on notification.

They may work without them but the inconvenience will deter 99% of people. Being dependent these external factors, It just doesn't feel as bullet proof as a whole.

Whatsapp also uses the signal protocol, but you wouldn't trust them because they're under facebook, would you?

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yogthos -4 points 8 months ago

I also find it really weird how aggressively Signal is being pushed everywhere, and how any criticism of it gets dismissed or ridiculed. It feels a bit like a cult at this point.

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daychilde 11 points 8 months ago

And that is the problem with anything you don't write yourself. And for anything you do write yourself: Are you smarter than the three-letter agencies?

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dessalines 16 points 8 months ago

There are plenty of chat services that aren't centralized and hosted in the USA.

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yogthos 8 points 8 months ago

You don't have to trust anybody when you run your own server, or you use a server that doesn't collect information it has no business collecting.

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desertdruid 7 points 8 months ago

No need for that when self hosted open source projects exist

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pkjqpg1h -4 points 8 months ago

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yogthos 7 points 8 months ago

Except you have no idea what's actually running on the server. Only people who operate it know.

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bunkyprewster 10 points 8 months ago

Best alternative?

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yogthos 35 points 8 months ago

It really depends on your needs and what people you communicate with are willing to use. A few platforms that are notable in no particular order.

SimpleX Chat is probably the gold standard right now. It uses absolutely no user IDs such as phone numbers, no usernames, no random strings of text. Instead, it creates unique, pairwise decentralized message queues for every single contact you have. Because there is no global identity, there is no metadata connecting your conversations together.

Session is a popular Signal alternative. It doesn't require a phone number and routes your messages through an onion-routed decentralized network that's similar to Tor. Since your IP address is hidden and messages are bounced through multiple nodes, no single server ever knows who is talking to whom, stripping away metadata.

Jami is completely decentralized, open-source platform. It uses Distributed Hash Tables to connect users directly to one another without a central server. Notably, it supports high-quality voice and video calls.

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tracyspcy 18 points 8 months ago

heard SimpleX is really good, the only thing that bothers me is their vc funding model. It makes me feel a bit suspicious.

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yogthos 11 points 8 months ago

Yeah, I'm leery about anything where vcs are involved as well for obvious reasons. The tech itself does seem solid though, and it is open source. If it does start moving in a sketchy direction at least it could be forked at that point.

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marcie 11 points 8 months ago

I really want simplexchat to evolve and get more features. If they ever make a lot of mod tools and the possibility to make giant servers with thousands with chatrooms like discord I could see it having mass appeal due to the ease of "signup"

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yogthos 6 points 8 months ago

yeah it definitely has some promise

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Neptr 6 points 8 months ago

Session is a security downgrade. It doesnt support forward secrecy which is hella important.

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yogthos -5 points 8 months ago

Session actually does implement a form of forward secrecy through the Session Protocol. https://getsession.org/blog/session-protocol-v2

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Dialectical_Specialist 5 points 8 months ago

I like your analysis, and would love your thoughts on matrix(assuming you have ofc)

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Neptr 8 points 8 months ago

People keep finding significant vulnerabilities in its cryptography and the Matrix team tries to deflect or create strawmans for why it isnt actually a vuln. Soatok found a vulnerability in 2024 by just browsing the source code for tiny bit of time, and again just two weeks ago after looking for a couple hours. In both cases, Matrix then responded to his vuln report with hostility, saying it wasnt actually a vulnerability. He is sitting on another vulnerability.

Having a cleartext mode is a security downgrade and no secure messenger should support cleartext. It only barely got functional forward secrecy recently. VoIP in most Matrix clients (and servers) still use Jitsi backend which isn't E2EE, even with the release of the newer (secure) Element call protocol. Matrix leaks tons of metadata, such as usernames, room names, emoji reactions, generate URL embedded previews. Rooms arent encrypted by default. It is also a UX nightmare and often times you cant decrypt your messages.

Matrix is not secure. You'd be better off with XMPP and OMEMO which has its own problems and isn't secure either. Sill better than Matrix.

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yogthos 4 points 8 months ago

It's better than Signal since you don't have to disclose any personal info, but people have pointed out some issues with federation in it. Again, it's one of those things that may or may not matter based on your use case.

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Ulrich 7 points 8 months ago

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yogthos 13 points 8 months ago

There’s no such social graph to speak of. Signal does not know who is speaking to whom.

The only people who know this are people operating the server. Period.

Three-letter agencies have served them legal subpoenas many many times and they never turn over anything more than the above information.

See the link I provided above.

Filter for…what, exactly? The hundreds of millions of people who value private and secure communications?

Yup, that's precisely what it's a filter for.

We do, because they publish them publicly.

Trust me bro is not a viable model for anybody who actually gives a shit about their privacy.

The reality of the situation is that Signal asks users for information it has no business collecting during the sign up process, and this information can be used in adversarial ways against the users. People using Signal are making a faith based judgment to trust the operators of this server.

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pupbiru 4 points 8 months ago

nope… signal has sealed sender to prevent them from building a social graph

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yogthos -3 points 8 months ago

Nope, sealed sender does not address the problem because the phone number is collected at sign up time. The whole sealed sender concept is just another trust me bro mechanic because, once again, nobody aside from people who are actually operating the server know what it’s doing. Signal is proof that vast majority of people don’t understand the basics of privacy and security, and they don’t actually care.

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Ulrich -2 points 8 months ago

The only people who know this are people operating the server.

We all know this, for reasons I've already stated.

See the link I provided above.

Your link is broken.

Yup, that's precisely what it's a filter for.

100M people is not a filter...

Trust me bro is not a viable model

No one said anything about that? That is not the model.

The reality of the situation is that Signal asks users for information it has no business collecting

The business is connecting users. It's one of the reasons it is the most viable private and secure chat platform. It's why I have a dozen connections on Signal and literally 0 on every other platform. Because you actually know who's using it. You can have the most private and secure messaging system in the world but if you can't use it to actually chat with anyone, then what good is it?

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yogthos 3 points 8 months ago

No, we don't all know this. What we actually know that people like you say this and expect the rest of us to trust you blindly, which is itself concerning.

Your link is broken.

Your browser plugins are broken, the link is fine. That said, here's non archived version https://www.washingtonpost.com/...

100M people is not a filter…

Given world population and modern data analysis capabilities it absolutely is.

No one said anything about that? That is not the model.

That's literally the model. Signal asks you for your phone number when you register, what happens with that information after that is only known to people operating the server. Let me know what part of that you're still struggling to understand.

The business is connecting users. It’s one of the reasons it is the most viable private and secure chat platform. It’s why I have a dozen connections on Signal and literally 0 on every other platform. Because you actually know who’s using it.

That word salad has fuck all to do with the point I made, which once again, is that you have to trust people who operate the server in how they handle this information.

You can have the most private and secure messaging system in the world but if you can’t use it to actually chat with anyone, then what good is it?

Ah yes, because there's absolutely no conceivable way to verify whom you're connecting with aside from sharing your phone number with an American company. You couldn't possibly use any out of band channel to verify who the person you're communicating with is.

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dessalines 1 point 8 months ago

There’s no such social graph to speak of. Signal does not know who is speaking to whom.

You have no source for that other than Signal's "just trust us" claims.

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pupbiru 3 points 8 months ago

no, the technology in signal prevents it

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dessalines 1 point 8 months ago

Give me ssh access to their server so I can verify that works like it should.

Can't? Then it's just trust me bro

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Ulrich -1 points 8 months ago

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Broken 5 points 8 months ago

I appreciate the comment on the matter. This is good information to know and consider.

People should know that Signal is encrypted and private, but won't make you a ghost.

That being said, the majority of people are not interested in privacy so getting them to use Signal over WhatsApp or SMS is a 99% win.

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yogthos 2 points 8 months ago

The question here is why not get people to switch to a better platform like SimpleX or even matrix with something like Element. I don't find that Signal does anything better in practice.

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Broken 2 points 8 months ago

And I'm not arguing not to.

But I tried to get everybody I know to contact me on signal or simplex. For a year. Only one person switched and they did so to signal. Because it was easier and more people were on it. I myself stopped using simplex because not enough people are using it that I know.

So where the rubber meets the road, if anybody wants to use signal I'm good with that because its good for 99% of all things.

If we (as privacy enthusiasts) want to promote the better apps, they need to be and appear less niche so they're more acceptable.

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yogthos 1 point 8 months ago

Yeah, there are network effects at play here. Getting people to move off a platform is very difficult because they need their contacts to move to, and their contacts need theirs in turn. Some people are willing to use multiple messaging apps, but most don't. I'd argue that's why it's important to promote alternatives to Signal. The more popular they become the easier it is to get people to move to them.

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rumba 4 points 8 months ago

signal is open source no?

There are forks that don't require phone numbers.

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yogthos 5 points 8 months ago

Yes, but those are basically separate platforms like Session. Signal does not federate, and there's only a single server in the US that requires your phone number to sign up.

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dessalines 2 points 8 months ago

Not effectively, since it's centralized in the US and you have no idea what code the server is running.

Signal does claim to have their server code open, but they went a whole year one time without updating it, until they received some backlash for it.

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pupbiru 4 points 8 months ago

you can never validate what code a server is running, so having FOSS server code is kinda a moot point: it can’t add anything useful to the privacy conversation

the only way you can guarantee privacy is with the client code, and they have repeatable builds so you can validate the code that’s encrypting the messages, and in that case it barely even matters if their server is streaming all the data they receive to some shady other place… especially with sealed sender

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dessalines 2 points 8 months ago

you can never validate what code a server is running

Most halfway-decent messaging services (unlike signal) are self-hostable. So yes with actual open source software, that's very possible.

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pkjqpg1h 0 points 8 months ago

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pkjqpg1h 1 point 8 months ago

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NominatedNemesis 4 points 8 months ago

We have to choose our threat level. Signal is great when you don't want to expose your data to companies mining it for their profit. It is not so great when you are a person of interest, and need absolute privacy.

The metadata is worthless and pricy to use it for an awarage joe.

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yogthos 3 points 8 months ago

The thing is that there's nothing special about Signal that makes it better than alternatives like SimpleX. I just don't see why it should be promoted instead of them. Yes, it's better than WhatsApp where meta has a master key and can read your messages, but why settle when you can use a platform without compromises?

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NominatedNemesis 2 points 8 months ago

Simple: I already migrated most of my friends over Signal. I did not know better alternatives at the time. While I agree with you, not about SimpleX I dont have enough info about it, but about that there are better solutions.

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yogthos 2 points 8 months ago

Yeah, that's fair. If you're already stuck on Signal, then it's difficult to make a move to something else. I'm mostly talking about people who are using something like WhatsApp, and it's better to make a fresh move to a platform that doesn't have the issues Signal has.

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Tayl 1 point 8 months ago

The link is not working. Would you be so kind as to provide the article link?

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yogthos 2 points 8 months ago

oh here https://www.washingtonpost.com/...

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pkjqpg1h 0 points 8 months ago

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WhyJiffie 2 points 8 months ago

I think their point is that signal knows the phone number associated to each account, and in lots of countries nowadays phone numbers are only obtained after identity verification.

sealed sender is supposed to hide the identity of the sender from signal servers, but it's security is questionable as it's based on blackbox hardware not even signal staff can audit.

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yogthos 0 points 8 months ago

Citation for what exactly? Go read up on how networking works, entire textbooks are available. The server has access to all the data the client sends it. How do you think you get paired with another person to chat, by magic?

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slazer2au 79 points 8 months ago

Remember how Telegram said they would stop providing Chinese authorities with user data during the Hong Kong protests. Implying that they were doing it at some stage.

Also remember how the FBI have said in several leaked documents they hate signal because the only data they get is when the user signed up and the last time they were online, nothing else.

Which app would you rather use?

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LifeInMultipleChoice 20 points 8 months ago

Random mention of Matrix because I feel i should

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zikzak025 24 points 8 months ago

Nothing federated is private, mind. Even with E2EE on in private rooms for specific messages, Matrix still relies on a constant information feed during use that can be used to deduce who is messaging whom and when, even if the content of the message itself is encrypted.

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Ulrich 3 points 8 months ago

What, are you talking about? "Information feed"? Where? By whom?

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zikzak025 7 points 8 months ago

E2E encrypted messages in Matrix contain more user metadata than alternatives like SimpleX, nothing scary but a MitM is able to see origin points, destinations, and times of messages. Server to server, if you're using E2E encryption, it relies on trust that the other server is not compromised.

And it seems Matrix.org is not the best at security disclosures: https://soatok.blog/...

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LifeInMultipleChoice 3 points 8 months ago

Yeah with a lot of research they may be able to figure out that semi-anoymous account messages semi-anoymous account at this time. But have no idea what was sent.

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desertdruid -2 points 8 months ago

inb4 matrix fanatics say you are wrong and spreading false info

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Ulrich 11 points 8 months ago

Remember when they arrested the creator of Telegram and forced him to hand over chat logs? Yeah, nothing to see here 🙈

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flamingleg 1 point 8 months ago

how much data do the FBI get from telegram? do you think the russian owner (who got arrested in france for refusing to make changes demanded of him by glowing authorities) is very likely to give any of your info over to american 3 letter agencies?

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zikzak025 2 points 8 months ago

I think it probably doesn't matter what he wants, it only matters that the data exists at all. If the owner is not giving permission, that's one thing. But I'm inclined to believe that those American 3-letter agencies aren't the sort to ask permission.

All it takes is one disgruntled systems engineer who thinks they don't get paid enough. An agency comes knocking with a sizable offer of cash, and they'll get the backdoor they want.

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Bookmeat 52 points 8 months ago

I've been saying this for years. Telegram is a social media app.

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UndergroundGoblin 45 points 8 months ago

Why are they sitting in a sauna?

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BanMe 58 points 8 months ago

Build sauna, host interview in sauna, sauna is tax writeoff

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man_wtfhappenedtoyou 11 points 8 months ago

Damn that's brilliant.

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boonhet 2 points 8 months ago

Depending on country you may be able to subsidize only part of the sauna as a business expense if it's a sauna at your home office, but actually hosting interviews in it would for sure help your case in claiming it to be operated for business.

I don't know how it is in the US though.

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sqgl 2 points 8 months ago

No windows, therefore quiet, and good acoustics.

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autonomoususer 32 points 8 months ago

And WhatsApp is worse. It fails to include a libre software license text file. We do not control it. It is never secure.

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kn33 43 points 8 months ago

It fails to include a libre software license text file.

I don't think this really makes sense as the leading point. More like "It's run by Meta and who knows what kind of backdoor they put in"

Yeah, it uses the signal protocol, but who's to say they don't have a secret member of every conversation.

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supamanc 4 points 8 months ago

I think WhatsApps biggest risk is the metadata. They know every group you are in and who else is in that group. They know when messages are sent and to who. They know where you are at all times, and probably have access to your libraries as well if you didn't specifically restrict that. It's a huge trove of data, which one would assume is freely shared with governments on request.

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Trilogy3452 3 points 8 months ago

I have a credible source that says they're scanning media being sent. They have a CSAM or related department. No idea how that works but I heard it exists. Can't find anything about it on the internet however to confirm

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I_Has_A_Hat 4 points 8 months ago

I wouldn't say it's worse. It technically claims to have end-to-end encryption while telegram doesn't. I wouldn't trust it at all because it's from Meta, but I don't see how you can say the one at least claiming to have encryption is worse than the one that just flat out doesn't have it.

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bouh 7 points 8 months ago

End to end encryption is worth nothing when WhatsApp have access to the encryption key. And the fact that all photos you see on WhatsApp are saved on your phone without encryption means that it's only encrypted when it's sent, nowhere else.

I also have very suspicious examples of advertising linked to WhatsApp conversations.

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I_Has_A_Hat 1 point 8 months ago

Yes, it's not good. We're talking about if it is worse than telegram though. Not if it's simply good or not.

I thought I was pretty fucking clear on that in my original comment?

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bouh 1 point 8 months ago

From my perspective, I'd rather have an enemy of country to have my personal data. It's far harder to use for them than for my country.

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mnemonicmonkeys 1 point 8 months ago

Exactly. Meta is fine with What'sApp having E2EE, because they can still spy at the endpoints

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autonomoususer 1 point 8 months ago

Lying is worse and you already said you don't trust it at all.

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Trilogy3452 1 point 8 months ago

Worse with an asterisk. For making contents encrypted - no, anything else - yes

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autonomoususer 1 point 8 months ago

It's not.

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Trilogy3452 1 point 8 months ago

Not = content not encrypted, or not worse

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Kailn 32 points 8 months ago

As much as I'd like to favor foss and federated messenger apps, telegram isn't as much garbage as whatsapp:

1.The client is somewhat open source and have forks like Forkgram, Materialgram and unoffical clients like Telegrand.
2. Telegram isn't E2EE by default but at least it doesn't lie about it and have E2EE secret chat when nessesary, that means crucial chats stay on your device and the rest stay on their database recoverable and syncable across devices.
(Yes, whatsapp supposedly is E2EE but we can't know for sure, it's closed-source.)
3. You can use telegram as a cloud service with only 2GB per file limit, unlike whatsapp.
(There's even a third-party app that utilise this as a cloud gallery.)
4. Even tho telegram has ads in large channels, telegram isn't funded by a greedy big-corp and it doesn't datamine you, ads are based on the channel's topic.

Yes, in terms of privacy, telegram isn't the best option, Signal, Session, XMPP, Matrix, or SimpleX have better privacy features, less linkability and E2EE by default but telegram is very mainstream and got more publicity, making it the whatsapp alternative it advertises itself as-is.
Publicity doesn't make a better messenger app, but for what it tries to do, it's adoptable for simple users, doubles as cloud storage and is more secure than the garbage being whatsapp.

Immigrating users to different apps is a headache on it's own, but if they know of telegram and it's not privacy invasive, that's not bad.

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Etzello 7 points 8 months ago

Isn't it possible to verify WhatsApp encryption with packet sniffing?

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Kailn 22 points 8 months ago

Yes, but how would you know Meta doesn't have a copy of your encryption key (ex: when you sign up) and keeps a copy of your encrypted messages somewhere?
AFAIK your encryption key resides as whatsapp's data folder but since whatsapp is closed-source you can't guarantee that whatsapp gave the encryption key to Meta's server at some point when it was created; (or it was created on their servers and sent to your device.)

One would just assume the encryption key is made on your device and never sent to Meta and all the E2EE messages aren't kept on Meta's server after they are sent.

Again, Meta is a company that is profiting on targeted advetising and selling user data, how would whatsapp be a free service without any profit?

Also, Here's someone who saw their whatsapp chat used for targeted ads on them in case you have doubt.

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Bouche4Dag 4 points 8 months ago

I can't find a link to this but I'm sure I've read an article about what happens when you "report" a message someone sent to you in WhatsApp. In this case some reviewer at Meta will look at your message and determine if it violated the rules. IIRC the article talked about them most likely being added to the chat but not visible.
There's a recent lawsuit that shows that Meta can view your messages through internal systems: https://proton.me/blog/whatsapp-encryption-lawsuit
Meta's AI assistant in WhatsApp leaves more questions about privacy. How closed-off is the data used in this AI from other parts of Meta's services?

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Kailn 2 points 8 months ago

Again, as I said, whatsapp doesn't feel like a genuine messenger app as much as an oversimplified garbage made for tracking users on the background for profiting.
Even the deal of "giving" Llama LLMs (Meta AI) to everyone feels sketchy and look abusive the way it is pushed to users.

Likewise all of meta's services, the only catch with whatsapp that it used to be good and it's a well-spread application, that's why they bought it instead of improving FB's messenger, as meta want to benefit of it's naive userbase who think whatsapp is "As fine as ever";

To you, publicity is nothing important and it doesn't make a good product, to meta however, publicity is "everything" and it shall be all-time high, they have more analytical data about their userbase and have a good idea of what they would do and what decision they would take.

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Etzello 4 points 8 months ago

Yeah don't get me wrong, I despise meta and their facade pretending WhatsApp is private. Your example is evidence but not proof but it does not mean I doubt you because it really doesn't surprise me. Gmail likes to pretend it's secure and private too because data in transit is supposedly encrypted but they can still just read absolutely everything in your inbox themselves

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Kailn 2 points 8 months ago

Just...
Don't let them deceive you;

If you must use deceitful software like Gmail, Whatsapp, Discord, office or whatever, just try your best not to leak your personal data on them, and if you can hinder the tracking, do so.

If you can use other (preferably FOSS) software, do so, there's plenty of solutions out there and most of them are free, and sometimes selfhost-able.

Google, Meta, Microsoft or whatever corp can lie about security or privacy all they want, but in the end, they only fool themself thinking their monetary practices aren't obvious and they can fool everyone, trust is a hard thing to earn and they can't earn it with fraud.

The product mostly show itself, and you have to go around it to know what's it's deal, if you prefer to not do so, you can search if any security researcher or analyst did investigate the product; For example Google claims Chrome browser is "safe" and "secure" dispute them giving so much trackable APIs for websites, and having a horrable default permissions, and don't forget the "Manifest V3" transition just to remove ads (and trackers) blockers like uBlock Origin.
You don't need solid proof to know what is what.

And then you just type " Foss Chrome Alternatives" or "Private Browsers" on a search engine like DDG where you can find many articles to help you find one (like this) and you'd be done.

Forget about ""Others"" right now, your well-being matters the most.

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blueberry_793 30 points 8 months ago

What is not mentioned... there's no privacy when the device itself is compromised. For instance, Android phones can read and phone home data from your notifications. In that case, any messenger app wouldn't be private from Google's eyes.

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IratePirate 10 points 8 months ago

...and once you get to "AI" with system level access that is supposed to scan for "bad content" (like with Apple's supposed "CSAM scanning" and Google's Android System Safety Core), all bets are off.

All of the major platforms owned by corporations (including Apple) are or will be compromised.

The only way out is degoogled Android (for now) or, better, a true Linux device.

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vacuumflower 3 points 8 months ago

There's a commonly used Russian metaphor "to not see the forest behind the trees".

What you are calling a device is in fact a system. It's a local system, that you are carrying in your hand, but it's functioning due to a very complex global system which is not. That device in itself is like a 1960s' town in complexity. In itself, but there's also the global system.

And these are a result of quite a lot of people employed by various organizations with hierarchies and dependencies. And most of the power in those organizations doesn't want you to have privacy and autonomy as much and when you want. If you want those, you should produce your own hardware and everything above it. Or build organizations interested in your full privacy and autonomy which will do that. It's about structure, so just creating a few of them (a goal hardly reachable in itself) with manifests saying "we want to be good" won't change anything.

So, if you were wondering why contemporaries of Stalin's regime were reluctant to divorce it with Marxism and call it something else, - that's similar to this. They really wanted to believe there's a Marxist superpower, just like some people wanted to believe Google is a good corporation, and before that some people wanted to believe Apple is a counterculture corporation, and so on. And, at various moments in time and space, in various dimensions, sometimes these were. Just like in some ways the British Empire was really bringing civilization to the world.

The more life and diversity there is, the likelier we are to have good things. That doesn't mean we'll ever have full privacy, full autonomy, fully civilized, peaceful and honorable world, and so on. We won't.

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boonhet 5 points 8 months ago

I think that metaphor is quite universal because it's also used very commonly in English and Estonian at the very least.

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Duamerthrax 2 points 8 months ago

It's common in Russia. It's common a lot of places, but it's common in Russia

But yeah, I've used that and the inverse depending on the context plenty of time.

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vacuumflower 1 point 8 months ago

Well, that something common in Russia as a metaphor is also common in Estonia wouldn't be a surprise, but in English seems a bit less common. Anyway, that wasn't the point of my comment.

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Fedizen 26 points 8 months ago

When you build a backdoor into your "encrypted messenger" its just a surveillance app

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flandish 25 points 8 months ago

pro tip: there is no such thing as a fully private app or communications channel unless you are face to face with someone and in a Cone of Silence(tm).

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jqubed 51 points 8 months ago

Portable cone of silence from the TV comedy *Get Smart*

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dephyre 12 points 8 months ago

What?

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flandish 13 points 8 months ago

WHAT?!

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flandish 10 points 8 months ago

was hoping the reference was going to be recognized. :)

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brbposting 4 points 8 months ago

Didn’t JUST get this way, we been smart

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gjoel 22 points 8 months ago

True. But there are still degrees of privacy you can achieve without going to extremes.

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dwt 7 points 8 months ago

While that is true to a degree, it is still worthwhile to have a hierarchy of escalation about on which app or platform it is safe to say which thing and which not.

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pineapple 1 point 8 months ago

Why not? If the service is fully decentralized and e2e enceyptwe with metadata included how is this not fully private?

I suppose someone with access to the network could see were the traffic is going to and from, in that case add a trusted vpn + tor. Ok sure it is possible for tor to be tracked and it is possible for a team to hijack your vpn providers servers forecefully and take logs. So technically possible. But even then they will only find who you are talking to, not what you are saying.

But it is also much easier to use countless tracking techiques to locate you, find were you are going and find who you are talking to.

Both of these are very unlikely to happen unless you are being personally targeted by govenment agencies.

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flandish 2 points 8 months ago

and in the US, as ab example, the gov is actively targeting citizens and noncitizens without the required warrants.

so yeah. assume the worst and prepare accordingly.

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emergencyfood 1 point 8 months ago

It doesn't matter how private and secure the messaging app is if the OS / keyboard / some random Google slopware with notifications access / physical device is compromised.

But for 99% of people, Signal, Telegram or even WhatsApp is good enough.

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pineapple 1 point 8 months ago

pretty much yeah.

Hmm maybe not whatsapp or telegram though. One of them is spyware and the other one is spyware and supports one of the (if not the) most evil tech companies in the world.

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egrets 24 points 8 months ago

They've done a really amazing job of convincing the world that this is an encrypted messaging app.

This is a play on people's naivety. It is an encrypted messaging app in as much as regular messages are encrypted between the client and the server. It's just that this achieves nothing for the user in terms of privacy unless you can both completely trust the provider (you shouldn't) and be confident that the back-end can't be compromised (you can't).

They do also have "secret chats" that are apparently E2E encrypted, but you'd be mad at this point to give them the benefit of the doubt without at least looking at independent security audits of the client.

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IratePirate 23 points 8 months ago

Where I am, Telegram is mainly used by alt- and far right figures close to Russia. Facts don't matter in these circles any more. Feelings do. And Durov knows how to manage those.

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ChristchurchAsshole 5 points 8 months ago

These people are foolish to use telegram, it's just a plain-text unencrypted app. Plus there's scams and spam all the time on telegram but not on signal.

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IratePirate 4 points 8 months ago

These people are foolish for reasons far worse than just using Telegram.

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punkisundead 2 points 8 months ago

Especially after Telegtam started working with authorities and handing out user / chat info.

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untorquer 20 points 8 months ago

The body language in this video is wild.

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HulkSmashBurgers 5 points 8 months ago

Body language of the interviewer?

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untorquer 11 points 8 months ago

No, both. The interviewer seems extra comfortable at the start but by the end they both seem on the same level. I think in a good way, not sure it's a good method to get a read on either of them if i know my friends 😆

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Rose 3 points 8 months ago

What about the astrological signs of the people?

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sifar 17 points 8 months ago

That's absurd coming from the founder of a FOSS messaging app who actively decided not to let Signal federate and rejected any other open source Signal client. Not only that, even now you can't truly use Signal's new "username" feature. If any of the recipients have your number stored in their phonebook, irrespective of whether you know them or not, the username goes for a toss. This was/is the problem with Telegram's username feature. Signal knew this and still decided to go ahead with it. Not to mention never doing anything about completely removing the phone number from the account after its creation. This has been, by design, a privacy and hence safety threat, and even after the username feature was implemented, this not getting implemented is very concerning.

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GreenShimada 7 points 8 months ago

I'm sorry your free messaging app isn't perfect. /s

And I always assumed that nicknames was just as much to prevent screenshots from becoming a liability.

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paequ2 4 points 8 months ago

you can’t truly use Signal’s new “username” feature. If any of the recipients have your number stored in their phonebook, irrespective of whether you know them or not, the username goes for a toss.

Hm. I haven't interacted with a new Signal user in a while... but I do see in settings two knobs: "who can see my phone number" and "who can find me with my phone number". Both of these settings can be set to "nobody".

I'm guessing if I set "who can find me with my phone number" to "nobody", then even if someone has my phone number in their contacts, they wouldn't know I'm a Signal user?

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KyuubiNoKitsune -2 points 8 months ago

Don't forget not allowing you to sync historical messages between your phone and PC. Apparently somehow that's just too complicated.

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ShortN0te 4 points 8 months ago

Its not about being complicated, its about dumping the whole chat history with just a few seconds of physical acceas to the device.

LEA has used this method with messangers like Whatsapp for years to quicly exfiltrade the data from a victims phone to other software.

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KyuubiNoKitsune -3 points 8 months ago

There's a pin. Just require the pin.

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ShortN0te 2 points 8 months ago

The Pin is not designed and used for such an authentication. Also can be changed at any time:

How do I manage or change my PIN?

On your phone, go to Signal Settings > Account > Change your PIN

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BennyTheExplorer 3 points 8 months ago

What are you talking about?

I literally installed Signal on my Linux laptop yesterday and it automatically downloaded all my messages from my phone.

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KyuubiNoKitsune 2 points 8 months ago

Last time I did that, it would only sync new messages

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elbiter 15 points 8 months ago

All these apps owned by corporations are just black boxes where you send information and nobody knows for certain what they do with it.

Best case, they parse it, cross it with other data and make it profitable (for them, not for you).

Worst case... Who knows...

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TropicalDingdong 14 points 8 months ago

Are they in a sauna?

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Wudi 7 points 8 months ago

A floating sauna. He built this himself.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DNV-qUfPZJ0/?hl=en

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sleepy 13 points 8 months ago

SimpleX is the most private of the big three. No phone number or account needed. Able to self host.

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Agent641 20 points 8 months ago

Why did they do it to themselves to name it after the herpes virus tho?

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spicehoarder 6 points 8 months ago

Because the most common transmission vector is via family members? (HSV 1)

E.g. Your crazy uncle or news max loving grandparents

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spicehoarder 13 points 8 months ago

Pardon my French but what the fuck is SimpleX?

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hanrahan 14 points 8 months ago

A messenger app Musk touted as better than Signal some time ago

It's a turd of an App, it's not even close to ready for prime time.

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Quill7513 3 points 8 months ago

most importantly it has a severe network effect problem. you will not find anyone to message on it

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orochi02 1 point 8 months ago

Why you say its Bad?

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cyberpunk007 4 points 8 months ago

The answer is Simple!...

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BananaLama 5 points 8 months ago

X

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chortle_tortle 4 points 8 months ago

What are the big three, and what is the bar it's jumping over to be consider big?

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tracyspcy 11 points 8 months ago

Pretty sure signal is not the best option, but telegram should be avoided at all costs.

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TropicalDingdong 10 points 8 months ago

How is signal not the best option?

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mnemonicmonkeys 7 points 8 months ago

Tbf, there's options that are just as secure and don't require a phone # to register, but that doesn't make Signal bad

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iamthetot -4 points 8 months ago

Signal does not require a phone number to register anymore, afaik.

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Matt 11 points 8 months ago

Signal still requires a phone number. What was added is usernames for contacts, so you no longer need to give other people your phone number for them to contact you. It is a step in the right direction, but it would be great for them to get rid of the phone number requirement all together.

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desertdruid 1 point 8 months ago

it does at least on android, you don't need to share it tho, there are usernames now

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privatepirate 5 points 8 months ago

Signal is good because it is easy to get others on board because of its simplicity, while having good encryption and security. However, SimpleX is just a better option. No phone number required, the same encryption, you can make a new profile whenever you want and you can have however many you want at a time. The groups can hold thousands of people. You can have it automatically make a new anonymous profile for you for each contact and group so that you can't be tracked across them apart from your writing style. There are no usernames, you add each other through links, which can be temporary or permanent, and you can add or remove a link whenever you want.

Sorry for that big wall of text, I just spat out all the things SimpleX is better for. I think that it's platform is the future.

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pupbiru 3 points 8 months ago

the tracking argument against signal is pretty weak imo… signal has no ability to build a social graph because in 2018 they implemented a feature called sealed sender which is a cryptographic mechanism that allows you to send a message without disclosing to signal who you are (the receiver still knows, and rate limiting still works)

the reality of signal having your phone number is they know you (as an identity/person) use signal and that’s it

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privatepirate 2 points 8 months ago

I know about that and that's why I'm not worried about them having my phone number, but its still a pointless requirement. What if I don't have a phone number for privacy reasons? SimpleX is still better in every way other than simplicity.

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Hawke 6 points 8 months ago

Why do you say signal is not the best option? My only discomfort with it is the phone number requirement (and I think they maybe relaxed that)

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tracyspcy 14 points 8 months ago

Phone number requirements + afaik servers are in USA + it was some cryptocurrency related story (they tried to add some crypto wallet at some point)

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Hawke 7 points 8 months ago

Ah I am not bothered by the cryptocurrency … thing. It’s pretty well buried in the app, and doesn’t seem like anything they’re particularly trying to push. More like a failed experiment.

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I_Has_A_Hat 5 points 8 months ago

It's important to remember that for a lot of programs that have some tangentially related crypto feature, crypto used to be popular. It still is popular in some circles. There was a time when it made sense to include those features because users were asking for it. So time, money, and energy was spent to add those features.

What do you expect them to do with those feature now? You really think they're just going to delete them? Why would they remove an already developed and implemented feature? They hurt nothing. People don't have to use them. Them existing doesn't take anything away from the app functionality.

It's like being upset that old car models weren't recalled to remove ash trays and cigarette lighters when smoking became unpopular.

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tracyspcy 4 points 8 months ago

It's not the wallet itself that bothers me (it is these days equivalent of adding some ai feature), but the story behind their involvement with and promotion of a particular blockchain or coin . Frankly can't recall all the details .

path: 0 22378626 22378858 22378983 22380266 22380373, hotness: undefined, score: 4, children: 1

paequ2 4 points 8 months ago

Yeah, you can make payments with MobileCoin. 🤮

Luckily, Signal does give you the option to completely ignore it. I only see it mentioned in the settings and I have not enabled it.

Same with stories, you can enable/disable them. Although, if I want to convince my normies friends to look at Signal using stories probably helps that. 🤷

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Ulrich 2 points 8 months ago

afaik servers are in USA

You mean one of the few countries not currently trying to dismantle encryption?

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JoMiran 4 points 8 months ago

Context:
https://support.signal.org/...

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Sims -1 points 8 months ago

Supported by US nasty agencies.. They do NOT care about any-ones 'privacy' and would only support if they have another purpose or a way in..

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takeda 1 point 8 months ago

What do you mean? DoD DOW uses it, it must be super secure /s

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Hawke 6 points 8 months ago

It is as long as you pay attention to who is in a group chat

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Krunchiebro 11 points 8 months ago

Why don't we all just truly go FOSS and use matrix?

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punkisundead 11 points 8 months ago

Matrix results in way more meta data and through federation those meta data could be stored jn way more places.

Besides their main developer (element messenger) are cop / military boot lickers.

Those are some examples for why you might not use it, but depending on you use case you might still prefer it over signal.

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ILikeBoobies 3 points 8 months ago

Because it’s not p2p.

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selokichtli 10 points 8 months ago

I don't think, at this point, people who use Telegram do it for their privacy. I still use it, but I don't trust it one bit more than I trust WhatsApp.

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herseycokguzelolacak 9 points 8 months ago

Unlike Signal, Telegram is successful in getting people to move away from Meta's Whatsapp.

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punkisundead 7 points 8 months ago

Idk about that. Signal is the main alternative to WA in some parts of europe.

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herseycokguzelolacak 2 points 8 months ago

Telegram has approximately 1 billion global users. Signal only has around 100 million. Telegram is about 10x the size of Signal.

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brownsugga 8 points 8 months ago

His NAME is MARLINSPIKE?? Like the ancestral home of Captain Haddock from Tintin?! We really are living in a simulation

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Octagon9561 4 points 8 months ago

It’s not his real name

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brownsugga 1 point 8 months ago

Lol of course

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brognak 4 points 8 months ago

It's also the name of a tool for working with braided rope.

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escapeVelocity 1 point 8 months ago

It's a surname, he used to be a boat punk younger.

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Pissed 6 points 8 months ago

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egrets 3 points 8 months ago

Were you using it to catfish strangers via DM? If you weren't, maybe they banned you for misuse of the platform.

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Pissed 2 points 8 months ago

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egrets 3 points 8 months ago

Oh, I was just making a cheap joke. I used Telegram for a while for a specific group, and in that time I was inundated with catfishing bot messages. The joke was that that's the purpose of Telegram and if you're doing any else on it, you're misusing it.

It was a very funny joke.

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Pissed 2 points 8 months ago

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sqgl 5 points 8 months ago

I don't understand his point about restoring your messages to a new phone. How does that prove it isn't encrypted? Couldn't Telegram store the encrypted data on their server, send the encrypted data back to you and then you automatically decrypt it because you have the key?

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malockin 11 points 8 months ago

With my limited knowledge of cryptography, this is how I understand it:

The distinction to make is that the user's password is not the encryption key - it only gives access to the key. So even if the user has the same password on a new device, there would be no way to decrypt the data without the original key.

In order to maintain full privacy, data has to be encrypted on device before sending it through any server (whether to another participant in a chat, or for backup). This means that the encryption key has to be on device.

If that key was copied over to a location not controlled by the user (e.g. Telegram server), then that location would have access to the key and can decrypt any data encrypted by that key. In the same vein, if a user loses their phone then that encryption key must be lost, so encrypted data cannot be decrypted on a new phone.

Which means that the only way that Telegram can provide the chats on a new phone (when the user has no access to the old phone) is if they have access to the encryption key and can provide it to the new phone.

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punkisundead 8 points 8 months ago

From my experience with that: Telegram restored all unecrypted chats when I swapped phones without asking me for any passwort / key. I literally just confirmed my phone number and all my chats / groups / contacts appeared.

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malockin 1 point 8 months ago

I assume you still had access to your old phone and could approve the transfer from it. If not, then your phone number is your password, which is even worse, in my opinion (it's basically public information).

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punkisundead 2 points 8 months ago

I got a one time password via SMS to confirm I am the one with access to this phone number.

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Tenderizer78 5 points 8 months ago

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Bongles 17 points 8 months ago

then suddenly people will start really caring about how much information a service has access to

I sincerely doubt it. The majority of people will accept that this is just "how it is" and will move on with life. After all, they're not doing anything wrong.

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fxdave 2 points 8 months ago

I agree, if majority of people would care, Linux PCs would be the most popular option. They care about convenience only, but not even that much. Instead of researching the best they are just ok with the advertised options. They eat what they get.

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lessthanluigi 2 points 8 months ago

I'm on dat Molly

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Duamerthrax 2 points 8 months ago

You mean the messenger that requires you give them your phone number to make an account? Yeah, fuck that.

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DoomGuy_e66 1 point 8 months ago

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pkjqpg1h 1 point 8 months ago

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BilSabab 1 point 8 months ago

well, duh. it is also deeply annoying to navigate. It is like even shittier and less engaging reddit

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desertdruid 10 points 8 months ago

weird to compare telegram to reddit, one is a messaging app and the other one is a link aggregator

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BilSabab 2 points 8 months ago

probably depends on how people use in different regions. down here it is mostly a news aggregator or thematic dumpster type of thing - so kinda like reddit. i had to look up when was the last time anyone wrote DMs to me in Telegram and it's been a little over 4 years. Viber is the go-to messenger down here, followed by WhatsApp and Signal and it is always a headache to figure out who is using what and when someone uses a couple of those it is a bitch to find anything across multiple chats.

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nao 2 points 8 months ago

but then both are used as forums

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jim_v 2 points 8 months ago

So are the comment sections below pork and beans recipes.

Any public discussion is technically a forum.

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BilSabab 1 point 8 months ago

except for Steve Hoffman forum. It's a colloquy

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astrobaris 1 point 8 months ago

Telegram had a good PR from Mr. Robot.

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Archon_Warslut 1 point 8 months ago

this is exactly what i said a month or two ago on my own site lemmy.world/c/World_Police https://lemmy.world/post/42682666

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boogiebored 1 point 8 months ago

That community sidebar looks like a schizoid post

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Archon_Warslut 0 points 8 months ago

my style is rather schizy but its not truly schiz

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clot27 0 points 8 months ago

No one I know uses it for secure chat per se

They use it for piracy, group chats, channels, stickers and other cool stuff it offers

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Th3D3k0y 4 points 8 months ago

I used it for my family chat, which I naively thought was private. I moved the fam to signal last year

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rumba 3 points 8 months ago

I was using it because the API was easy and it didn't have a problem sending images from my back door camera to my cellphone.

At some point, it got REALLY slow at sending, so I moved to NTFY

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clot27 2 points 8 months ago

good for you

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1984 -4 points 8 months ago

Better than American big tech chats. It may not be private but its a very good chat app. Definently the best designed one from a user interface point of view.

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DieserTypMatthias -4 points 8 months ago

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Sunsofold 2 points 8 months ago

Things like SMS also are used for a lot of illegal activity by people who don't know better. Commonly used doesn't mean much.

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kingofras -5 points 8 months ago

Yes, but did they have a sauna together afterwards?

Seriously though, Signal founder should be careful not to use too much free speech around this, as even sauna can have 2nd floor windows you can fall out of.

Just tell people Telegram and Whatsapp and the TenCent clones are all the same. Signal is a bit better, matrix should be standard, and indeed, face to face without any electronics and lots of background noise is still best.

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skisnow -5 points 8 months ago

I predict yet another Signal-related hack within the month.

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WhyJiffie 12 points 8 months ago

yet another? what dou mean?

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vacuumflower 7 points 8 months ago

And it will again be about someone added to the wrong group. Meaning - not a hack.

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skisnow 0 points 8 months ago

See this is why I’m reluctant to start listing them because I don’t want to get dragged into an interminable discussion about how hacks like https://thehackernews.com/... somehow “don’t count” because it was the user’s fault, or https://support.signal.org/... doesn’t count because it didn’t include chat messages.

The irony is I very carefully chose my words when I said “Signal-related hack” instead of “Signal hack” because I knew fanbois would show up to argue that anything short of a central database leak isn’t really a hack.

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vacuumflower 1 point 8 months ago

It's a thread about comparing Signal to Telegram of all things. In comparison to Signal as anything secure Telegram doesn't exist in any quality.

At the same time Signal doesn't have mass group chats and is not intended for that purpose.

The first link does count, it's a valid failure from Signal devs. Humans err.

The second link does not, it's an unofficial centralized aggregator, not from Signal devs, and the "hack" was a direct consequence of how it worked. It's absolutely something that no sane person would use.

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skisnow 1 point 8 months ago

It’s a thread about comparing Signal to Telegram of all things

The relevance is that it’s not some unaligned security professional talking in the article, it’s literally the guy that runs Signal having a pop at his competition.

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picnic 5 points 8 months ago

Could you maybe resfresh my memory a bit and share a few previous signal hacks? Thanks

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HugeNerd -5 points 8 months ago

What is a Moxie Marlinspike?

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But_my_mom_says_im_cool -8 points 8 months ago

So what? Her app is also probably selling data too, and it it isn’t it will be sold any day now

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lepinkainen -8 points 8 months ago

Telegram has first party bot support, Signal doesn’t.

That’s the #1 reason I still have Telegram installed.

Let me have my own bot, officially, connected to Signal so I can do my nerdy automation shit through it and I’ll move over fully.

Please don’t link me any of the “just use a prepaid phone and…” hacks. I don’t want that, I want first party support.

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disconnectikacio -15 points 8 months ago

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vacuumflower 1 point 8 months ago

Telegram is used by Ukrainian armed forces for military actions, ruskie pests use it too for the same… so its probably hard to hack, as these REALLY want to see the messages of each other…

You see, these arguments are just impolite when made against the man in the post going out of his way to provide you with an experiment based on logic that you don't need computer science knowledge to verify.

As far as I have heard, Ukrainian servicemen are forbidden to use Telegram. Ukrainian civilians do, and Ukrainian special services might do that sometimes perhaps.

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answersplease77 -15 points 8 months ago

they definately installed signal and fucked afterward

path: 0 22397944, hotness: undefined, score: -15, children: 0

Georgvwt -24 points 8 months ago

Signal is also not private

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TropicalDingdong 22 points 8 months ago

The onus is on you to back up that claim

path: 0 22378973 22379124, hotness: undefined, score: 22, children: 6

dessalines 2 points 8 months ago

It's really the opposite, considering its a centralized server hosted in the USA. Signal's "Trust me bro" is not an adequate security model.

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0x0 -12 points 8 months ago

Look for other comments in this thread that back up this well-known fact.

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TropicalDingdong 9 points 8 months ago

Ahh yes. The anti-vaxxers "do your own research" defense.

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0x0 -10 points 8 months ago

Try harder if you're trying to troll or offend, your attempt is pathetic.
It's not "do your own research", it's "use the fucking scroll wheel".
\0

path: 0 22378973 22379124 22380848 22381037 22381279, hotness: undefined, score: -10, children: 1

Georgvwt 2 points 8 months ago

it's useless, signal fanatics is unbearable

path: 0 22378973 22379124 22380848 22382318, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0

presoak -29 points 8 months ago

She's pretty hot for a programmer.

And with a name like that she was destined for greatness.

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abysmalpoptart 12 points 8 months ago

Moxie is the guy

path: 0 22401408 22401847, hotness: undefined, score: 12, children: 4

presoak 0 points 8 months ago

Hmm. Looks more like a Bill

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Xorg_Broke_Again -4 points 8 months ago

Misgendering on Lemmy? Yikes.

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abysmalpoptart 3 points 8 months ago

I'm not sure what you mean? I'm pretty sure moxie identifies as a guy. I think the person i was replying to was trying to talk about the interviewer, Sabrina Halper.

path: 0 22401408 22401847 22402116 22402526, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 1

drath 0 points 8 months ago

Think that was a joke playing on the possibility that Moxie could be a trans woman.

path: 0 22401408 22401847 22402116 22402526 22407457, hotness: undefined, score: 0, children: 0

privacy

@lemmy.ml

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A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.

Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.

In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.

Some Rules

Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn't great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
Don't promote proprietary software
Try to keep things on topic
If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
Be nice :)

Related communities

much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)

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privacy

@lemmy.ml

login for more options

A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.

Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.

In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.

Some Rules

Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn't great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
Don't promote proprietary software
Try to keep things on topic
If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
Be nice :)

Related communities

much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)

go to feed...