Google's shocking developer decree struggles to justify the urgent threat to F-Droid
a year ago by ardi60 to c/technology
Ah. Well. About software. Stallman was right about software
Don't forget about his views on sex with animals!
Or his views on seemingly eating toe nails right off of his feet in public.
Or his views on seemingly eating toe nails right off of his feet in public.
I feel that's a personal matter though. Stallman can have whatever opinion he wants on that one.
I sometimes like to read his political posts:
And honestly? I mostly agree with them? Like this:
ABC ordered to pay Antoinette Lattouf another $150,000 for unlawful termination over Gaza Instagram post.
But a company faced with enormous threats wielded by fascist officials who demand that certain views be suppressed will treat such penalties as the normal cost of sucking up.
The [Israeli] army says that HAMAS is using apartment buildings for "surveillance", and has bombed some of those buildings to destroy them. Based on this logic, the army might bomb every tall building in Gaza City with the large bombs that the US is providing
He has some questionable beliefs as well, though for unusual reasons. He accepts non-binary people but refuses to use they/them pronouns because he doesn't like the ambiguity of singular/plural pronouns. So he has invented the neopronouns per/pers to refer to singular non-binary persons. I genuinely think no other person on this planet could hold this opinion.
Okay that's all cool or cool-and-stubbornly-autistic. But he has some other opinions that are not, about consent and age.
So the blanket 'fuck yeah, stallman!' Doesn't really fly anymore.
Hasn't he admitted to changing his opinion after learning about the effects on children? I'm not in the loop about this.
But yeah, you definitely shouldn't treat his words as gospel. A lot of questionable-at-best stuff in there.
I genuinely think no other person on this planet could hold this opinion.
Eh, I'm pretty close to this opinion.
A family member came out as non-binary, and I don't like to use they/them (for the same reason as Stallman), but I also think creating my own pronouns is more offensive, so I just use their first name, unless I can't easily avoid it (like this sentence). I'm not trying to be offensive, I just don't like they/them as angular pronouns. I also don't like "you" as both singular and plural, but I'm also not ready to use "y'all", so I refer to second person groups without the pronoun (if feasible).
On a related note, I also think gender is a social construct and not actually "real." Sex exists because it's a biological thing, but it shouldn't be directly tied to your role in society. To change my mind, I need empirical evidence that there's some unique difference between men and women (brain wave patterns?) that aligns groups of non-binary people or aligns trans people with people of the opposite sex. I personally don't think this exists, and gender fluidity is more a symptom of a culture that isn't well equipped to handle people who don't nicely fit into a bucket. I think gender is a useful metaphor for what's going on, and I absolutely support people fighting for using it to get the recognition they need, but I don't think it's an actual, scientifically proven thing.
The only real difference is that I use first names to refer to non-binary people's first names more frequently than to binary people. I hope that doesn't offend anyone, I just really don't like using the same pronoun for both singular and plural.
Singular they is over 600 years old by the way: https://www.oed.com/...
As a trans person, my gender dysphoria is not something caused entirely by social gender roles. Medical transition has greatly alleviated the majority of it. Anecdotally, within the first week of hormone therapy, my dysphoria improved dramatically while only being out of the closet to 2 people outside of my therapist and the medical professionals who prescribed my hormones. It has continued to improve, although I'm still waiting for the surgery that will resolve the remaining things that hormones can't fix.
Also, there are studies around brain structure differences between men and women, and transgender people tended to have brain structures in line with their gender, not their assigned sex at birth: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...
Perhaps you should believe people when they tell you who they are, and get past your discomfort drawing arbitrary lines in grammar regarding pronouns, when singular they predates the fall of the Byzantine Empire by 75 years.
He accepts non-binary people but refuses to use they/them pronouns because he doesn’t like the ambiguity of singular/plural pronouns.
I agree with this criticism, but the entire English language is full of bullshit so you might as well consider using Esperanto
as someone who is not a native english speaker when I first encountered people people prefer they/them I also found the same problem of ambiguity, and took quite a while to get used to it
I criticized singular they/them for increasing language ambiguity and suggested replacing it with something new like xe/xer multiple times. The reply is usually a shitstorm and downvote tornado. I've given up on that front.
Probably because singular "they" predates singular "you" grammatically. Should we go back to using thou and thee instead of the singular you as well?
Unless he's championing paedophilia and bestiality, which he has done on a number of occasions. Or being an absolute creep with women, which he's also done.
🪴
thank god for brazil
Best of luck to Brazil then. Hopefully you get them to change course.
brazil and piracy are a match made in heaven, I remember when I was 8 and my mom went with me to a openstreet market to buy xbox360 games, all were pirate copies selling in open sky to anyone to buy, copyright be dammed, and of course can't forget the famous "gato" to watch all tv channels for free with a android box that definetly does not has a backdoor in it
The problem might be that Google will argue this isn't a downgrade at all, but an upgrade (for "security" reasons). I don't want to be a pessimist, but the tech illiterate judges could eat that up.
technically you will still be able to install apps from outside the play store, but the developer will need to verify their identity with google.
Of course, most developers will refuse to do so (myself included), and so most apps will not be able to be installed. From a technical perspective, installing apps from other sources will still be allowed. So i can see judges ruling that this is not a feature removal.
You and I both know this is google killing non play store apps, but I don't think the tech illiterate judges will see it that way.
Considering it's easier than ever to start up something like Shizuku, it could be used to grant f-droid access to install apps bypassing the requirement.
Obviously not a good solution by any means.
Starting next year, Android will require all apps to be registered by verified developers in order to be installed by users on certified Android devices.
Are they actually proposing to make any previously sold devices “certified” through a software update, though? Your points are right on if this edict applied to all devices.
A "certified Android device" is a device running Google Play Services, Play Protect, Google's WideVine DRM scheme and a few other requirements. If you purchase a device from a known manufacturer, like Samsung, you're falling into this category.
They’re not removing a feature though, so that whole argument falls over instantly.
That’s not removing a feature though, it’s just changing it. Side loading is the feature.
"Google stands for free and open internet"
Aged like milk.
aged like a corpse in a bathtub more like it.
Mmmm head cheese
Don't be something or other, hey check out this week's doodle!
I’m frustrated that the article didn’t link to the “decree.” Do you know where it is?
EDIT: nvm think I found it
Isn't this illegal in Europe? Was that the whole point of forcing apple to allow alternative app stores?
Technically, third party app stores are allowed. Developers "only" register with google to receive a developer certificate. Isn't apple doing the same thing in response to the EU regulations and that has been allowed?
It’s because they regularly overstep their bounds and force overseas companies to do things they have no right to make them do, which actively hurt their business. Of course companies are going to do their very best to comply while making it have as little impact as possible!
If you have a Mac, have you ever tried installing an app and have it refuse because it's not signed by Apple, and then you had to go into settings and click "allow anyway?"
This is that, except without the allow anyway feature, like iOS. It doesn't matter if it comes from the play store or elsewhere, as this story originally had us believe.
There's never been a more urgent time to switch to Linux on pretty much every device.
There's generally been positive reviews for FuriLab's FLX1 model:
- https://clehaxze.tw/...
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41839326
- https://www.reddit.com/...
- https://www.reddit.com/...
- https://www.theregister.com/...
Their new one, the FLX1s has 2GiB more RAM (for 8GiB, in total). I've heard battery gets 2 days without charge even with Android emulation.
It's still Android kernel and drivers :/ but it is private. For Linux you'd need postmarket or one of their derivatives and they are fighting to get cameras and power under control.
prob the best we have at the moment.
edit: to be clear, I'm saying Halium is the best we have at the moment, real linux is trucking along but it's still a long way out.
So it would seem.
Ubuntu Touch works well on my fairphone.
Very cool! I'm thinking of going for ubuntu touch, seeing as Android has proven that it's no longer worth the time investment. Also, Fairphone 5 is my next phone if the current one dies, so it works out.
Could you share what do you really like about it? And what is your biggest gripe or letdown with it? Thanks!
It's using Hallium, which is still using Android kernel and drivers, hopefully they can keep that up while vendors are getting increasingly antagonistic.
It is private.
If you want to run some android apps you can use waydroid, but it torches the battery.
If you want to run arm linux apps, you need to dork around with containers as the root os is RO.
I'm sitting on the fence of shelling out for a decen FP
Beats me! I'm in the process of moving banking and payment off my phone in preparation for a Linux one. These things will very likely not work on non-proprietary devices.
These things will very likely not work on non-proprietary devices.
Depends on your bank. Most work on alternate OS (like GrapheneOS), and of course some don't. https://privsec.dev/...
If an app (especially bank) doesn't work, I forward them this and try to ELI5 that their current method is flawed and less secure: https://grapheneos.org/...
Going for plastic when paying instead of using a digital wallet, using the banks' websites for transactions instead of the app.
For those in Europe, write your representatives.
Fro me f-droid's post: https://f-droid.org/...
What do we propose?
Regulatory and competition authorities should look carefully at Google’s proposed activities, and ensure that policies designed to improve security are not abused to consolidate monopoly control. We urge regulators to safeguard the ability of alternative app stores and open-source projects to operate freely, and to protect developers who cannot or will not comply with exclusionary registration schemes and demands for personal information.
If you are a developer or user who values digital freedom, you can help. Write to your Member of Parliament, Congressperson or other representative, sign petitions in defense of sideloading, and contact the European Commission’s Digital Markets Act (DMA) team to express why preserving open distribution matters. By making your voice heard, you help defend not only F-Droid, but the principle that software should remain a commons, accessible and free from unnecessary corporate gatekeeping.
https://f-droid.org/2025/09/04/twif.html [^antifeatures]: F-Droid Anti-Features overview: https://f-droid.org/docs/Anti-Features/ [^howmanyusers]: How many F-Droid users are there, exactly? We don’t know, because we don’t track users or have any registration. “No user accounts, by design”: https://f-droid.org/2022/02/28/no-user-accounts-by-design.html [^sideloading]: ‘“Sideload” is a weird euphemism that the mobile duopoly came up with; it means “installing software without our permission,” which we used to just call “installing software” (because you don’t need a manufacturer’s permission to install software on your computer).’ — Pluralistic: Darth Android: https://pluralistic.net/2025/09/01/fulu/ [^playprotect]: “Google Play Protect checks your apps and devices for harmful behavior”: https://support.google.com/...
do we have a contact tool like for chat control?
Ah, you mean https://fightchatcontrol.eu/.
I am not aware of anything yet, apart from what the article suggests. https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/...
I will literally go without a smartphone if Google does this, this is insane I would have bought an iphone if I wanted a junk device I don't actually own.
It won't. This is for 99% of users with their Google enabled devices. It's still shit and it will effect the 1% indirectly by the reduction of available software outside the play store.
The crazy part is this may make iOS the better alternative when considering the emergence of third-party app stores and Apple's loosening grip on their ecosystem.
LineageOS is still a good option too, for anyone who would prefer to keep the phone they have
LineageOS is not really an alternative though, as it will still be hit by this. Please see the comment here: https://lemmy.world/post/36621884/19652276
Not really. They are converging onto the exact same thing. 3rd party stores are allowed, but needs [Google/Apple]'s approval.
If you are big and have teeth (like Epic Games), you will (probably) be allowed, if you are small like a single open source developer, the can shut you down city dubious "security"/"ToS" issue, and you probably don't have the money to sue.
iOS would be the better alternative, if it wasn't for the hardware they run on. After all, Apple is infamous for their blatant planned obsolescence on their iPhones since the iPhone 6. Unfortunately, Google seems to be following Apple in this way as well since they launched an update that made the Pixel 6a's battery so much worse than before. Therefore, we must all have a dumb phone + Linux phone set up...or something
I can agree on Apple not really having a properly supported hardware repair ecosystem, and actively working against third party repair.
But the software? When Samsung and friends had 2-4 years of security updates, Apple had almost twice that. The iPhone XS still has support, 6 years after end-of-sale, 7 years from release. Normal people can’t be expected to flash their phones with LineageOS. The situation is slightly better nowadays, but Samsung still seems to be depreciating 3 year old devices: https://endoflife.date/samsung-mobile
To add, Apple has actually been making amends regarding repairability. It's small steps, but leagues ahead of what's offered for popular android manufacturers, while still maintaining their IP68 ratings on most devices.
I can't speak to how they make their parts available to third parties (seems to be a grey area), but there has been a reasonable focus with the last couple generations of iPhones that ensures the device can be repaired from either side.
Overall, the tide seems to have shifted. If you're going to be at the mercy of a corporate giant in order to keep up with modernity, then Apple is currently holding the dimly lit torch of consumer rights.
Apple is infamous for their blatant planned obsolescence on their iPhones since the iPhone 6
They learned from it. The phone toggles itself when the battery health is at 80% max capacity, but this is toggleable. Also, the iPhone 11 still runs smooth.
iOS would be the better alternative
- Already can't "sideload". iOS will be just as restrictive as Android in 2026-2027.
- Apps immediately gets killed in the background. Can't even transfer data to a USB Drive without needing to downloading a separate app, and need the app in the foreground.
- iPhones cannot multitask
- Developer account costs $99 **per year. On Google its only a $25 one time fee (for the near future, at least, I can't predict what they will do in like 2035)
Yeah, if Android effectively kills fdroid, then it essentially becomes like iOS. Whilst you can technically still sideload, apps must get certified by Google themselves and there's no way they'll allow 90% of fdroid unless its their Google Play versions.Tbf though, I didn't know the background thing, which just goes to show that neither of them are ideal. Especially since Apple locks down their devices really hard which turns things like transferring files without a cloud service into a challenge. Therefore, in the future, I might just use a dumb phone for basic phone calls and text messages (meanly just for things like job applications or services like pharmacies) and a Linux phone for everything else. That's assuming Linux phones have evolved just enough to be usable alongside a dumb phone for what it can't do, which is SMS.
Apple, with the longest software support on the market, and planned obsolescence don’t go in the same sentence together. Sorry but they are literally the best in the industry in this regard.
Also I assume you’re talking about the “batterygate” thing with the iPhone 6 where they slowed the device down? That was a giant overreaction - the alternative was the phone crashes and reboots constantly.
They both go for the least open option. If asking for all devs registration and validation from google is viable and legally sound, apple will do the same if that's not already in the pipe.
Both "stores" are targeted for the same issues.
Owning a phone doesn’t give you control over what the operating system can do. You can so what the OS they give you allows you to do, or you can find a way to put a different os on it - but they don’t need to provide a way for you to do that easily.
Not really sure why this is a hard concept for some people to grasp?
I'll believe it when I see it.
They exist. People just don't buy them. But there is a Ubuntu phone port you can install on your phone as an alternative to android.
https://forums.ubports.com/...
But yeah it can get complicated like any Linux community project and isn't at all mainstream.
People don't buy them because they don't fucking work.
Why do you need the google Authenticator? Proton has it too. Which (from searching) looks like it’s compatible for the Ubuntu systems. But that’s just from the search. I ‘m personally just using it with a android right now. I am currently eyeing up the fairphone Ubuntu as my next phone
Google Authenticator is merely a generic TOTP token storage app. The person you're replying to was pointing out that Google Authenticator, specifically, isn't necessary. There are alternatives, and unless you're using a company-owned device that restricts the apps you can use there is no way for work to dictate which app you use for TOTP tokens.
Duo, Okta Verify, and other 2FA apps that use push notifications and such, are a different beast altogether.
they are interchangeable. you can export from google to use in proton. I’ve set all my google logins to proton too. I’ve not experienced this ‘locked in’ situation if you’re using your own phone to run the app.
My work has me using 3 different 2FA apps depending on what service I'm accessing. It's great! Especially with the noticable battery consumption increase after setting up 2 more 2FA apps than I had before
Same reason collectivist people like social media censorship and gun control, to make them feel "safe" even though all it does is centralize power. Besides hi ow many people have the tech skills to even know what third party app repositories are?
Lots of jobs require BYOD today (like, most F500 companies) and they limit to non-rooted OSs. I use Aegis for personal apps but I cannot escape microsoft as long as I want to keep paying my mortgage.
Right, because side-loading is called "installing" on Linux
gulp You might be right
Hopefully they go to court to get an injunction. Hopefully, they also go to the powers that be in the EU, those same powers have been so focused on the Apple App Store they failed to take into account Google can do something like this with the Play Store. It would be a shame for the F-Droid project to end but it is completely avoidable.
What we can do is complain. Loudly.
Degoogle where possible. Fuck these assholes.
And i guess prepare.
Complaining tells yhe company this isn't popular. Complaining while talking about alternatives is helping others towards doing something, and giving the idea that it will be a net negativeove for their hegemony,even if you don't do shit.
To be fair, up until recently, there was no clear indication that Google would do this. Google made it so that installing non-play store apps was slightly more difficult, Apple made it pretty much impossible. So Apple was a pretty logical target at that point (and honestly, up until then, they had pretty much gotten a free ride - think of the default browser issue in Windows, no one every bothered with Apple).
Linux mobile
Yea... I'm really disappointed with the timing of FuriLabs new phone which is mostly a downgrade over the previous one. I've been window shopping phones for a couple of months and am at a loss for what to do. Even spent some time considering a dumb flip phone that can work as a wifi-hotspot and use a small linux tablet or something for the more involved stuff, but couldn't find a good tablet option that wasn't huge (would still want it to fit in my pocket) or come with the same problems.
Shift phone 8 from murena?
As far as I can tell, it's just de-googled android... It is going to have the same eventual problems as any LineageOS, e/OS/, or GrapheneOS phone will have.
Unfortunately we need to come to terms with the fact that 1) Android is not Linux after all of the bastardizations Google has done to it and the control they maintain. 2) We need hardware mfrs on board for fully Open Source drivers for mobile hardware.
Basically all of the Linux phone options I've looked at have been disappointing. You've got people making open source OS like Sailfish or PostmarketOS or UbuntuTouch, but they only work for pretty narrow (and old) hardware and they don't get 100% functionality on basically any of the hardware. FuriLabs was the first one I'd seen claiming you could use all of the features of the hardware, but even then it is using a bunch of (basically) compatibility layers to trick android apps into running, so I don't even know if that will work after Google gets done with their plans.
Open source community keeps trusting Google and they keep using the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...
What should anyone have done different? Not built for one of the largest platforms with the most users?
Android is so big because the community let them embrace it. Since the beginning the community should have worked in a true open solution. Now it’s really late to try to make a Linux phone
It doesn’t need to be Linux though - AOSP is still open source. Companies like graphebe using it just needed to not depend on Google to provide them the hardware and software to keep their OS viable. It’s entirely on them.
Google start with open source so they can use open source tools and get a lot of work for free.
But they use the famous Elbrace, E tende and Extinguish. See the things they are doing with the web with Chrome.
Linux would suck on a phone. Sorry it is barely usable on a laptop. We get worse battery life hardware less supported. Sure we put up with it but most people just want stuff to work.
This is because the community did not spent too much time optimizing for this goal. This is what I am saying, the open source community should invest more on Linux phone.
Anyone that builds their entire company and/or product around being reliant on a multi-billion/trillion dollar company providing them with their source code for free so you can use it to get around using their services is only setting themselves up for disaster.
If you rely on Google giving you their source code, you need to have a backup plan ready at all times for what to do when Google don’t give you their source code.
Let's hope that the rest of the world, specifically Europe smash this ridiculous proposal apart for what it is. Europe has already sorted out USB-C etc. Its not perfect and they don't get everything right, but certainly big enough to make stuff right.
They're too busy forcing chat control and age gates through our collective throats.
Yep. The E.U. has allowed itself to be dominated for too long by the US megacorps. It has the talent, ideas, and manufacturing to tell US firms to bugger off ... and the sooner, the better for us all.
Unless you want hillbilly outrage slop destabilising your continent, you better get control away from American tech companies.
they are also going hard on surveillance, private info too, backed by RU of course.i think russell vought is behind the anti-porn verifications in the EU
At this stage the EU probably pushed Google to do this. They’ve taken a sharp turn to authoritarianism.
I think the European leadership has changed and we need to watch our elected officials. However don't think Google was pushed into anything. They're now he company that does the opposite of their original manifesto. They're evil don't need that.
What pisses me off it that they say they do this for security. It changes absolutely anything.
They really think that malware developers will say "oh no! I need to submit a picture of an id card to sign my malware! It's literally impossible to submit a jpg of a stolen id card, I'm ruined and out of a job!"
What does it change? Waste 20 minutes of some malware developer while they register under a stolen id? They already have a system that scans for known malware and automatically remove it.
It's always security when someone wants to take our freedom away. Always security...
About keeping the children safe
That's also security.
Thing is, Play Store is already filled with malware or near-malware from seemingly verified developers. I ran into several scam clone apps just today. It's even snuck in through OEM apps.
Same on iOS, which supposedly verifies devs.
If 'verification' and curation is their idea of security, well... It appears their system is already overloaded, yet they want to expand it?
It's absolutely insane that anyone pretends Google Play and the App Store are fine though.
Has anyone scrolled through any search and not seen a sea of heavily marketed scam apps?
Both things can be true. It definitely is better for security. It’s pretty much indisputably better for security.
But you know what would be even better for security? Not allowing any third-party code at all (i.e., no apps).
Obviously that’s too shitty and everyone would move off of that platform. There’s a balance that must be struck between user freedom and the general security of a worldwide network of sensitive devices.
Users should be allowed to do insecure things with their devices as long as they are (1) informed of the risks, (2) prevented from doing those things by accident if they are not informed, and (3) as long as their actions do not threaten the rest of the network.
Side-loading is perfectly reasonable under those conditions.
It’s pretty much indisputably better for security.
I dispute this. While adding extra layers of security looks good on paper, flawed security can be worse than no security at all.
Android packages already have to be signed to be valid and those keys already are very effective in practice. In effect these new measures are reinventing the wheel as to what a layperson would think this new system does.
Adding this extra layer in fact has no actual security benefit beyond posturing/"deterrence". Catching a perpetrator is not the same thing as preventing a crime. Worse - catching a thief in meatspace has the potential to recover stolen goods, but not so in digital spaces - either the crime is damage or destruction of data for which no punishment undoes the damage or the crime is sharing private data which in practice would almost certainly have been immediately fenced to multiple data brokers.
And were only getting started with this security theater:
- Nothing prevents an organization from hiring a developer for long enough to register before being flushed (or the same effect with a burner account on fiver)
- Nothing in this program does anything to get code libraries vetted - many of these developers may accidentally be publishing code from poisoned wells that they have no practical knowledge of.
- None of these measures make scams less profitable.
- None of this addresses greyware - software that could technically qualify as legal (because the user agreed to terms of service for a service of dubious value)
- All of this costs time and resources that will likely inevitably be shouldered on low paid engineers that could have put that effort to better uses.
- Metrics and statistics may likely be P-hacked to reflect that the new system as a success (because there's internal pressure to make it look good) this turning-security-into-press-releases would have collateral of making accountability overall worse.
But you know what would be even better for security?
While we're at it we could add the tropes of removing network connectivity, or switch to using clay tablets kept in a wooden box guarded by a vengeful god. Both of those would be more secure, too.
Users should be allowed to do insecure things with their devices
100% agree with you here - it's fundamentally the principle of "Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins". Users should be given the tools and freedom to do as they want with their property - up until it affects another person or their property in an unwanted way.
I think we mostly agree. And I do agree that “flawed security can be worse than no security at all.” I think, though, that this doesn’t make security worse, just that it doesn’t make it that much better.
But even simple filters can make a significant difference: maybe you remember the early-ish Lemmy debacle of turning off captchas for signups by default, ostensibly because captchas are now completely defeated… which led to thousands and thousands of bot accounts being created pretty much immediately across a bunch of instances, and the feature being turned back on by default.
I'll agree to that.
And I also think that there's no way I trust Alphabet (holding company of Google) to be the sole arbiters of who gets to run code - neither in a philosophical sense nor as a gatekeeper to one top five compute platforms used by a substantial chunk of the world population.
It absolutely does not justify creating a policy that would wholesale obliterate F-Droid, arguably one of their larger competitors.
I don’t think it’s going to be as simple to verify as uploading a pic of an id
If it's like the play store verification, it's quite simple. The main problem is that once "verified", Google publicly doxxes individual devs by publishing their residential address + private phone number + private Gmail on their dev page, and this is unacceptable for anyone except who used stolen identities
"Year of the Linux Phone" has a nice ring to it.
Not for me, no. I love the sandboxing and permissions of android (GrapheneOS). Honestly, desktop OSs should learn from it. Also, android is a lot easier to use, especially on small form factor devices.
Idk about GrapheneOS in particular but I find the sandboxing solutions for GNU/Linux like bubblewrap to be much more granular than standard Android.
"give us access to manage phone calls or we won't you me answer internet calls (which have nothing to do with actual SIM calls)", "give us access to all your files or we wont let you share that file via the share function (which doesn't need fs access to work)".
On GNU/Linux I can only give a program exactly the resources it needs, I can disallow dbus, I can block it from accessing potentially troublesome things like /dev/dri, can overlay filesystems and pretend that's my real home dir. Or can just mount the whole / to some other system.
I am not saying android is perfect, but too granular is also bad. I have better things to do then tweaking SELinux policies.
It seems to me that part of the problem is overreliance on phones as computing devices. A lot of things, like banking, are best done on an actual computer. We have become too dependent on phones.
Your phone has likely much better security for your banking apps than your computer, unless you run really niche setup like QubesOS.
We as a society should be rethinking the term "security", if it's come to mean submitting to being jerked around however best suits some private company's interests instead of our own. If there's a central platform for its security benefit it should be democratically controlled instead of controlled by what are effectively feudal lords, or perhaps even an occupying force
The security I am talking about has nothing to do with being locked down. Linux could easily implement the same, but it probably never will, because it requires a bit of central management and vision. And Linux really struggles with that.
I'm not sure how it works the way where you live but where I live, the way the banking apps are implemented completely violate MFA. They rely on SMS verification which is absurd since if you're phone is already compromised, no doubt your SMSes are too. There's no true multi-device authentication in place and this has led to a huge number of victims being scammed after their devices get compromised by a phishing attack.
The desktop and phone are both insecure, proper security should not have all your eggs in one basket.
Well, yes. But then again, I would trust my GrapheneOS phone not getting compromised over 3 linux devices. MFA is not some ultimate solutions and it is a pain to use.
Yeah, SIM swaps are a concern too.
There are no banking apps on my computer.
Maybe we have this view because when we refer to computers we see a more open ecosystem that's not found in the mobile phone era. I want that same liberty with my phone. When the word "sideloading" has disappeared, I think then we have known something has changed.
Yeah but it's "we" as in everyone not "we" as in "Lemmy commenters".
So the network effect will keep the average person on a locked-down phone that can't run anything anti-regime
Yep I absolutely refuse to put any banking apps on my phone. The only thing that has access to my bank is me physically going there or logging into their website via my own computer. Fuck any app that asks for access to my bank account including autopay services through third parties.
The only third party service I use for payments is paypal and that only goes to my credit card.
I am perfectly ok with android apps being required to be signed by not just a certificate (they always were just it could be self signed and just needed to match to upgrade without removing data) but a list of trusted entities.
As long as:
- I can install my own key on my phone (I'd I am trusted)
- major distributors like fdroid and have a key installed without friction (like web CAs)
- Google let's me mark their key as untrusted (I probably won't but I should be able to refuse things they trust (at install time, not disabling preloaded apps like settings)
Without this it feels too much extending the monopoly despite being forced to allow 3rd party stores.
The justification is simple, I don't see the confusion, they want absolute power and for all alternatives to wither and die ? What is there not to understand ?
EU be like: Really? Didn't you learn from Apple?
There's the FairPhone 6, running e/OS, Which is a deGoogled port of android, running microG
I dunno how viable it is, but linux phones with waydroid is a thing
Also, I'd imagine that a small pocket of custom ROM amd root folks will still exist
Come hell or high water, i will retain control of my phone
Damn, I was hoping my Oneplus 6T was worth a couple grand. Nope. Someone has one on Swappa unlocked and in mint condition for $180. A Oneplus 6 is listed on Ebay for $130.
It is, but why does that matter?
I think that's the one I have, but please explain what mainline Linux kernel means? Would it be about installing bare Linux instead of Android?
It means you can use the regular Linux kernel instead of fucking around with a custom kernel (like Asahi) or with some sort of Android layer (like Halium). So running whatever distro you want shouldn't be too difficult.
Can't you install graphene on Pixel 6 and later?
This is why I didn't bother switching to GOS, Lineage, Calyx etc despite being sick of Apple's anti-foss monopoly — marketed as Privacy™️ and Security™️ — for years.
The late stage capitalism of western oligarchies indicated that Google's rug pull of AOSP was an imminent inevitability. After already having to change my services and workflows multiple times over the last 2 decades — despite careful analysis and forethought — due to services ever changing value propositions, acquisitions, and all other forms of enshittification, I'm at the point where I won't bother wasting energy on 99% of digital products unless they're open source and I can run them indefinitely on my own Linux server.
The more dependent you grow on digital products, the more interdependent they become, and the more time and effort is required to replace or substitute them.
This is why I didn't bother switching to GOS, Lineage, Calyx etc despite being sick of Apple's anti-foss monopoly — marketed as Privacy™️ and Security™️ — for years.
Bullshit. If you liked so much your freedom and privacy you would have many opportunities to use open source ROMs. You chose to stay on your iPhone because it was easy.
Also absolutely not believing you when you say that you anticipated the rug pull and chose to "not bother" for that reason. What a poor excuse for staying and supporting the closed ecosystem of Apple.
After already having to change my services and workflows multiple times over the last 2 decades
I can't believe someone who has been for years on an iPhone would pretend they are an ardent defender of freedom and open source.
Sure thing, buddy. Nice gate keeping high horse ya got there. FOSS is sure to attract more users with humble geniuses such as yourself antagonizing them. Do you also use Arch, btw?
"If you don't spend hundreds of hours switching from big tech corp controlled platform A — you've used for almost 20 years — to switch to big tech corp controlled platform B, you obviously don't support freedom and open source"
I actually contribute to the development of open source projects. Do you create/give value, or are you just a taker/user? ... Or are you just salty you couldn't see this highly predictable result coming a mile away?
The never-ending purity tests are so exhausting. “You’re not a real vegan, you eat fermented food which kills the yeast!”
Nice nick!
What stops those open source projects having that same rugpull? AOSP was open source and for a long time could be installed on one's phone indefinitely.
You could argue ownership, but if Audacity can be bought then so can nearly anything.
I’m out of the loop, what’s that about Audacity? Looks like they still have a github repo with very recent activity and Wikipedia says their trademark was acquired by a company in 2021.
As far as I remember, Audacity's maintainers, previously just some volunteers with no organisation, decided to sell the ownership of the project to a company with some guitar platform. Nothing changed at first, they employed the maintainers to work on the same project they were already working on.
Then they started adding controversial telemetry and some soft forks appeared. I vaguely also remember hearing that there's some contract that the company owns the source code, so relicensing to a proprietary licence is easy and possible in future. All the new software the company launches is proprietary, and there's signs they want to tie it all together into a single suite.
Nothing majorly bad has happened to Audacity, yet. But decisions are no longer community driven, as shown by the telemetry drama. I fear it's a matter of time.
I should probably add: if it becomes proprietary, the remaining soft fork will likely die. Turns out very few people have the technical knowledge for Audacity.
If you want to read the telemetry controversy/drama, I found this one I'd read years ago: https://github.com/audacity/audacity/pull/835
I remember feeling a bit bad for the maintainers. There's a lot of complaining for a minor and optional change, but at the same time it's interesting that they added telemetry anyway. (Not unmodified however)
This is why I didn't bother switching to GOS, Lineage, Calyx etc despite being sick of Apple's anti-foss monopoly — marketed as Privacy™️ and Security™️ — for years.
I'm at the point where I won't bother wasting energy on 99% of digital products unless they're open source and I can run them indefinitely on my own Linux server.
but.. this doesn't make any sense. the roms you brought up can be still used indefinitely, they will still be able to install any apps. maybe except when they have installed the official google suite, but that's always a user choice in the popular android rom world, none of these preinstall it, and microg users are not affected
Contact your representative. And here's F-droid's article about it (including how to find your representative at the end of the article): https://f-droid.org/...
How does google plan to enforce this? Will they disable side-loading for any app that isn't registered with google?
That is their intent, yes. https://arstechnica.com/...
@AlteredEgo
Yes, pretty much. You need to sign the app with a key registered with Google.
@ardi60
My job doesn't allow me to use a jailbroken/rooted device
So if/when this goes through I'll be switching to iOS.
Given the choice between two closed platforms, I'll pick the one that ostensibly says they're privacy focused instead of the one actively enshittifying their product.
I obviously don't know your situation, but using your own phone for work is a bit of a red flag. If you're required to use a phone for work, ideally the job should provide you one that meets their requirements.
Yeah, a mandatory work phone (where the employer can define requirements) should be purchased and funded by the employer.
Exactly.
My work only requires that I have their MFA. They don't care if it's rooted, it just needs to allow me to login. I'm guessing if I pushed back enough, they'd find an alternative.
And the obvious annoyance of having two phones
I don't find this applies. I have an email account and chat app for work. I'm using a 4 year old phone. It's not slow.
Also having stuff consime your disk doesn't really slow it down.
Work profiles exist for this reason. A completely separate environment that is isolated from the rest of the phone and can be turned on and off on demand.
Some manufacturers, like Samsung, make it difficult to access, but it's there.
Your job can say what phone you have? I don't get it
The moment my work says what phone I need is the moment I demand they provide a phone for me.
How about Murena Fairphone/Shiftphone with non-rooted /e/OS and locked bootloader?
European devs: Our laws will protect us!
Meanwhile, our laws:
Article 30
Traceability of traders
- Providers of online platforms allowing consumers to conclude distance contracts with traders shall ensure that traders can only use those online platforms to promote messages on or to offer products or services to consumers located in the Union if, prior to the use of their services for those purposes, they have obtained the following information, where applicable to the trader:
(a) the name, address, telephone number and email address of the trader;
(b) a copy of the identification document of the trader or any other electronic identification as defined by Article 3 of Regulation (EU) No 910/2014 of the European Parliament and of the Council (40);
Bear in mind that an open source license is a contract and it usually involves some form of reciprocity, like crediting the dev by name. That's in principle not different from a sponsorship deal, where some sports stadium gets the name of a corporation.
The actual definition is even wider, though. I don't see who you get out of that.
Trader defined in the DSA
‘trader’ means any natural person, or any legal person irrespective of whether it is privately or publicly owned, who is acting, including through any person acting in his or her name or on his or her behalf, for purposes relating to his or her trade, business, craft or profession;
If F-droid ever has more than 50 employees, annual turnover over EUR 10 million, or over EUR 10 million on the balance sheet, then they will have to collect the same information.
Google’s developer verification will only run on mainstream Android with play services. It’s not supposed won’t be running in standard AOSP so the easiest solution would be to switch to a custom ROM like GrapheneOS.
They are also working to similarly kill custom ROMs. Just recently the GrapheneOS team mentioned that Google is no longer making their hardware drivers Open Source, and so compatibility with new phones means reverse engineering their own drivers - which is a big reason that custom ROMs support such narrow hardware options already and very often come with limitations and/or features that just don't work. At best, they figure out how to make it work, but it takes time and updates can lag significantly behind.
We have a lot of options on the software side for avoiding google (or android), but very limited options on hardware. We need open source mobile hardware support ASAP.
They’re not so much working to kill custom roms as they are just not giving away their code anymore, going closed source for their own hardware.
Because Google have been wanting to be closed source for years, which is why nearly all their new features since they released the Pixel have been PixelOS exclusive and not in AOSP.
They don’t care about killing custom roms, that’s just a side effect of them going closed source for their Phone.
even the OP is softlocking thier newer phones(arbitrary online application to unlock it) in the near future, i expect a full lock sooner or later
Yes, banking apps, streaming apps, even some shopping apps. This has been a problem for a long time. Sometimes its for “security” reasons and sometimes its simply because the app uses Play Service APIs. Another issue on de-googled systems is push notifications, though that is often fixed through alternates like Unified Push
But remember, unlocking bootloader is harder and harder for many devices. And Google's Play Integrity and API changes makes removing trace of unlocked bootloader harder. Many apps not just banking, ChatGPT, games, some of social media is completely unusable in that scenario.
I don't like that my neighbours are noisy, guess i should get a second house for when they're shouting
Well, fuck. Most of people use F-Droid on "certified vendors" device.
Newpipe, now signed by Norman Reedus, verification picture and everything!
Best part: the better names in the alt os and device scenes don't sell in us markets.
Unless you do the legwork of flashing your own device, most of us are out of luck.
I just love a good market stranglehold.
But they do: https://murena.com/america
Would this be possible to bypass by bulding an app from source and convincing android that you are a developer who is testing his program?
Theoretically, google could keep that workaround in the code, yes.
Tap for spoiler
Practically it will be gone in 3...2...1....
So when this happens, can't fdroid just make a PC side installer that syncs apps to the phone through adb? Sure it sucks that you can't just tap to install now but at least people could still use their 600 dollar phones for as long as they were supposed to by plugging in every now and then when your PC fdroid client tells you there's updates. Heck on the meta quest I used adb only with the quest headset once I got it configured, it was some self hosted adb server and let me do all the sit I needed a computer for in the first place without one, maybe fdroid could change the client to use a "remote adb" solution like that?
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