We can't even pump fuel anymore without holding a digital billboard (Netherlands)
9 months ago by Cattail to c/assholedesign
Fun fact for most of these on-pump advertisements: if you see eight buttons in two columns, hitting the third row(?) second column button should mute the speaker.
Fuck these abominations, fuck the oil industry, fuck the advertising industry, and fuck the snack and beverage companies that advertise their poison on these devices.
Where I am it was the second down on the right side, but recently the button to mute stopped working around where I live. I have a friend who just sticks his keys through the the speaker grates to kill the speakers lol
I’ve always seen comments like this when this topic gets brought up, but it’s never worked for me at any pump. I usually start pressing all the buttons when the ad plays, but never any luck
This is the way.
To anybody thinking about vandalizing this thing:
DONT BREAK IT, not the screen, not the speakers and none of its electronics, you can create a shortcut, then a spark and YOU WILL KILL YOURSELF or the next person that uses the pump.
Paint and stickers are the way to go.
The likelihood that you get any kind of meaningful arc from puncturing a speaker is almost none, theyre not gonna drive those speakers with high voltage. Especially improbable since you're likely just destroying the speaker diaphragm, so an arc may not even be feasible from the type of damage done.
When myth busters tested whether cell phones, and then arcing (like from static discharge) would blow you up at the gas station, they had to use a large continuous arc from a neon sign transformer (extremely high voltage) and a sealed box full of the ideal fuel to air ratio of gasoline vapors to get an explosion.
Puncturing a speaker isnt unlikely to ever have to have either of those things. You're unlikely to get an arc, and there should be like a zero percent chance of a meaningful build up of fuel vapors in an open air setting where the vapors have to make out of the narrow choke of the fuel tank opening, where the nozzle and its rubber splash guard thing are blocking its route, and all the way to where the speaker is
Do you by any chance have any experience working with electricity to back up your concerns?
This seems alarmist. I've never heard of such a thing happening with this kind of display.
They've been disabling the mute buttons
I can imagine this leading to a meltdown for some inexperienced gas pumper who’s already very frazzled by the controls.
I have, but smaller than this. This seems like it's straight up a safety issue.
bully for you
We also have probably 1000x the number of pumps In the US. Maybe more.
I’ve been thinking of gluing maxi pads to the speakers when they blare ads at me, but my wife told me they’re too expensive.
This seems insane to me. You cannot latch the handle to continue dispensing, without actively holding it in Australia (and I imagine most countries?)
Seems insane because it's removing a layer of protection (you, noticing the automatic shut off mechanism isn't working) for barely any benefit.
Though, I don't know the statistics on how much this contributes to extra spills or fires.
I'm still looking for the asshole that invented those. Please tell me if you know who he is?
Omg!! This is going to be a IRL chair company sequel!
This company went bankrupt btw 💯 I can only hope whatever chain decided to try this shit got ostracized too.
Reminds me of the company that did smart coolers for gas station coolers. It cost thousands of dollars and required proprietary service for this display. Idk if anyone is bankrupt but the company that made them essentially stopped supporting them so has stations have worthless screens blocking the merchandise
I saw a bunch of those cooler displays just showing errors/blue screens.
I refuse to look at them anyway and just stand there holding the door open while I browse/decide what I want. They can pay to cool and then re-heat the room ontop of the power costs for those displays.
Damn, thought only the US was crazy enough to have ads at the pump. This is a whole other level.
The Netherlands tries really hard to be Europes US...
Vandalize it.
I'm usually not in favor of this sort of thing. But I think there are some instances where that may be justified. This screen serves ZERO public benefit. It's just there to annoy you. So IMHO doing something like 3d printing a cover that you leave on the screen is a public service.
99% of advertisements serve zero public benefit. Its in society's best interest to actively hinder them whenever possible IMO.
Well said
All right well I hate to disagree but advertisements do support a lot of websites and news organizations, or at least they used to before the tech Giants took most of the advertising money.
The question is not whether they support a business model, it's whether they are good for humanity. And they are bad for humanity from a socioeconomic perspective because it is labor power spent with negative net use value produced.
Compare it with imperialist wars: they are the business model of the entire MIC, and yet I hope you agree that wars of aggression are bad.
Sorry, whose infrastructure are these gas pump advertisements propping up? Pretty sure this is just going towards lining someone's pockets.
Why shouldn’t it? Or failing that, why should it be there at all?
You answered already:
Fuck capitalism, fuck the constant attempt to extract value from every single moment of our existence.
Agreed.
Thank you for your service.
Hang on, that's just a bingo dotter...
edit: God I forgot how much I hate what the graffiti community has become. "Oh just etch your tag in so it will be harder to remove" what fucking dipshit toy came up with that? Did impermanence just get forgotten? Where did the obsession about not getting buffed come from?
As someone who does slaps, I'm no stranger to the idea of temporariness nor do I really try to combat it. My work sticks around then disappears, as I will eventually myself. As for the obsession of not getting buffed who knows, likely born out of the gang affiliated side of graffiti, same boneheads who fight people physically over turf, etc.. But since we were discussing obstructive protest I think it's worth a mention. Speaking of which - don't get a weed sprayer off of Craigslist and fill it full of paint, that sort of thing could lead to no good.
Fuck me
This was reported but I don't think it warrants censorship.
If you're taking this more seriously than it should be, just keep in mind that there will likely be legal consequences since gas stations frequently have plenty of cameras and ask yourself if this hill is worth dying on. You'll get charged and they'll just replace the damn things anyways.
Lmao, was my comment the only one reported? Because this whole thread is people saying to vandalize it. 😂
Yeah, not sure why yours in particular was the only one, probably timing.
Yes this is an invitation to it. Destroy that shit.
Didn't even know there were gloves, and like why? Is petrol toxic over time or something?
I mean yeah, not just over time.
And it stinks, and you might not want it on your hands. Also, everyone touches that nozzle and no one washes their hands before or after. It makes sense that there are gloves, I just never saw anyone who bothered to use them.
never had gasoline on the handle, but when i had a diesel, every single handle was spilled on
It can be, yes. Helps if you remember the skin is an external organ.
So you touch each other organs when you meet?
It sticks to your hand and smells bad, especially if the station doesn't properly clean the nozzle gun. Plus in Europe we have a bunch of diesel cars, and diesel is like 10 times harder to get off your hands than petrol.
Yes, but it’s even more toxic when inhaled.
I heard it is even more toxic when ignited.
I've used gloves when pumping diesel because the handle gets a lot dirtier (greasy, in fact), but given the sticker on the fuel door that's not what's happening here. A gasoline pump handle isn't gross enough to bother.
You never been to a doctor?
Have you considered vandalism?
Vandalism is always an answer. May not be the right answer, considering the question.
Hey Gina, what do you think would be a good fundraiser to help cover the funding gaps our shitty government leaves us with year after year?
Hey Bob, Joey's getting out of the hospital today and is going to have staggering debt because the purposefully inefficient private healthcare system has so much power over our elected officials.
Fuck it, I tried twice. Vandalism is the answer.
Can of cheap spray paint, hit all the pumps at once
Let's call it disabling or indispose as a public service.
Vandalism ( as they will undoubtedly will frame it) has a negative connotation.
Language used to fit the view of who uses it.
Like 'regime' (government we don't like) or officer involved shooting (pigs murdered someone).
Do your neighborhood a favor and bring a can of spray paint next time
They look rugged. My suggestion is a liquid solution that either desilves glues or one that binds like glue. 👍
Like gasoline?
Worse in California.
I've been to multiple stations that have speakers on the pump and start blaring ads as soon as a credit card is inserted. Most of them have had "Mute" buttons on the pump, but the last one I went to did not and there was no way to silence the screaming advertisement. Will never go back.
A knitting needle helps with the hard to reach ones.
Lol. There's always someone who thinks they're omniscient. Truly amazing that you've filled up at every single gas station in CA.
Edit: There are over 13,000 stations in California and you've been to each and every one. Please tell us more.
2nd edit: Missed the 2nd sentence due to a serious lack of caffeine. As Emily Litella used to say, "Never mind."
They are saying if you don't find the button, puncturing the speaker cone will mute it because it's broken
I'm an idiot. That's what I get for looking at Lemmy before morning caffeine. As Emily Litella used to say "Never mind."
Anyway, as amazingly tempting it is to kill the speaker, I'd prefer to avoid vandalizing the asshole's pumps. I'll just avoid the place for forever like most of their other customers.
I’ve only experienced this at Sinclair. I refuse to give them business and have given bad reviews to those near me for it
Every car at a gas station has an exhaust system with temperatures well over the ignition point of gasoline. If there was a problem we would have to let our cars tool for half an hour a quarter mile away from the pumps before we pushed them there by hand.
fortunately gasoline only burns in a narrow range of mixtures which are impossible to get in open air.
The concentration of vapours matters. It is still best to not be smoking above the nozzle (even if it's unlikely to be a problem), and any embers or flames touching a small stream of it are still a problem. The safety precautions are over the top because the consequences if it goes kaboom are pretty terrible.
Because its not a touchscreen. That's the reason.
I think no cellphones at gas pumps has been a thing before phones had touchscreens
It's the Mythbusters episode where we got the iconic "Am I missing an eyebrow" line from Adam Savage. One of their first episodes in 2003 I think and it was considered an old myth even back then. Modern large capacitive touch screens didn't gain popularity until around 2006.
I think no cell phones near gas stations is a 90s thing from when cellphones were new.
Often times you can press one of the buttons to mute it, although apparently some pumps have decided you're not allowed to decide when you want to hear your own thoughts. Just start pushing the buttons on either side of the screen, chances are one of them will shut it up.
Expanding foam spray in the speaker vents
If I can't mute them I take my knife and destroy the speaker if its accessible.
Can't do that in the US some crackhead would take it and sell it as an ipad
I wonder how those get updated... maybe over the air? If so, might be fun.
I don't see them upgrading the pumps just to get ethernet to the nozzle.
angry unibomber noises
kaczynski was right
Next level : if you want it to fill your tank fast & ad free, you have to subscribe to a monthly card-club with Facial-Recognition, otherwise it keeps showing you ads & it fills your gas tank reeeeeally sloooOOOOoowly to make sure you watch at least 5 ads ^^
If you try to close the ad then the hose sucks the gasoline out of your tank but still charges you for the amount pumped. Also good luck getting the right fuel for your engine, the pump selection system has been replaced with a gacha game. Try again and maybe next time you'll get Diesel-chan!
And gas is never cheaper because of it too
The screen handles are expensive so you're just watching the ads to pay for those.
Sounds like something that could motivate me to wear a ring with a diamond. "oops. Seems diamonds really are a hard material..."
There is no way these are rated as intrinsically safe
I was thinking the same. This would probably be classified as EX zone 1 right?
To anybody thinking about vandalizing this thing:
DONT BREAK IT, not the screen, not the speakers and none of its electronics, you can create a shortcut, then a spark and YOU WILL KILL YOURSELF or the next person that uses the pump.
Paint and stickers are the way to go.
I've started leaving if the thing shows me an ad, I just put the nozzle back the second the ad plays, gets me enough fuel to get to a non compromised station.
The most fucked is full serve stations with the ads. While my windows are up so Im safe, the poor staff have to listen to an entire gas station worth of pumps blaring ads all day.
Recently I ran into a new one. The pump had a screen, but instead of a tiny screen surrounded by buttons (one of which can be used to mute the video), it was a giant screen with no buttons. Ergo no mute button. I tried clicking around the screen but nothing worked. There’s gotta be a pattern though.
I hate those ones, last one I saw was at a full serve station. Not even fuel select buttons just touch screen for all of it.
I think they use a touch layer overtop the actual screen so if it gets fucked they can swap it
Similarly, in the US, one of those 'Hello my name is' style nametag stickers generally cover a speaker grille. It doesn't stop the audio, but it cuts it way down.
Also useful for kid toys that are way too loud.
Spray paint or hard to peal off stickers.
Stickers, yes, spray paint, no. I guarantee you (with knowledge from experience) that a gas station owner (or their grumpy manager) will happily sit through hours of grainy cctv footage to find the little moment a can is visible in your hand, ignoring every other urgent task they should be handling. I wouldn't be surprised, since protecting corporations is what cops love, if some cop would then take far too much time to get the palantir/flock cameras from the local area and find your car. So unless you're just hunting these down...
A far better method would be to 'accidentally' spill some gasoline, use a napkin to wipe it up, and then 'accidentally' hold the gasoline soaked rag against the screen while fueling. Stickers, like you said, would work, because it would be harder to see you apply them.
Spring loaded carbide center punch. Discrete and effective.
...relevant username? 🤔
"when your sheets still smell like his colon in the morning 🥰"
Would be a shame if you dropped the nozzle on that cold hard pavement.
Or spilled a black glue-like substance on it.
Illegal ≠ immoral
This is honestly kind of amazing in its evilness. Is it powered by a little turbine from the flow of petrol in the handle?
Who fucking comes up with this stuff? I mean they probably won't ever admit to it, but there are probably agencies, like EvilAds Inc. that spend weeks refining concepts such as this one.
Weeks? Product development sometimes takes years. Something like this was thought of years ago somebody put it into development and it probably took quite a while to figure out exactly how to make it work with the product and with the device. It definitely didn't take weeks.
You're underestimating the ressources of EvilAds Inc.
How I sleep knowing that with my new second hand EV, I never have to visit a gas station ever again:
!ZzzzZZzz!<
Good news, looks like it's not: https://www.mobilityenergy.com/...
a filling gun with built-in display that was supposed to make refuelling more attractive
Lmao, lmfao even.
Standard at most American gas stations now, but screen is on pump base and super loud. What do you mean profitable? Are you questioning whether ads generate revenue??
Well, advertising is more or less a zero-sum game. Showing more ads to someone does not mean they have more money to spare.
So, there's only so many slices you can cut the advertising cake into. And this concept just feels like someone is spending far too much money for far too small of a slice, for them to be able to make that money back.
Well, and the nozzle company did go bankrupt as someone else commented, so I guess, that answers that question either way...
Screens are cheap man. Advertising is highly profitable and effective. You aren't inonnated with a zero-sum game. It's far from saturation. If it's somewhere your eyeballs point there is profit to be made by putting ads there.
No, just more revenue than the increased vandalism
Another win for electric cars, huh?
In the US the ad videos are so loud, they would be considered OSHA violations. I'm not sure how they get away with it.
Isn't there a mute button? I never hear those things
The mute button stopped working on every gas station I've been to. People were writing "mute" next to it, making it too obvious.
Here's a protip. If you have a long key on your keychain, you can jam it into the speaker slots at just the right angle - might take some fiddling to learn, but it's the 10 o'clock position in towards the center - with a quick thrust you can disable the fucking thing permanently. If you do it right, it looks like you're leaning against the pump, stretching.
I started doing this at the stations I frequent, and AMAZINGLY they muted them ALL, doing away with the commercials and just throwing up a slideshow of ads instead. I will happily keep at it. Try it for yourself. Take a small flathead or a bowie knife if your keys aren't long enough.
Ive heard you can mute them by pressing a magic combo of buttons. Like top 2 times bottom 3 times and it mutes. Ive never had luck with them though.
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start.
Uh oh, the pump tried to give me 30 gallons of gas but my tank doesn't fit that much
What kind of ad video are you saying that's so loud that it would be considered an OSHA violation? That setting a pretty high bar. Anytime I've been anywhere that they've shown an ad the volume's been negligible to the point where if I walk more than a foot or two away you can't even hear it.
Ours are on a screen that is beside where you pay, mounted beside the counter. Lots of Shell stations in the US have them. I was complaining about how much I hate them because they hurt my ears, and my friend whose husband also has auditory issues apparently avoids them as well. They are not just loud, they hurt. Southeastern US.
If you know someone who can get you some anti petrol stickers, esp ones that promote renewables and / or maybe the new Technology Connections video, please do so.
I'm sure they'd crack with a center punch from ace hardware. (fuck HD and Lowe's) Idk what the Dutch equivalent is.
Would the station prefer to replace screens every few days, or just stop offering gas?
Disgusting, hard boycot.
Avery Ultra Hold 2" X 4" mailing labels would probably help. They'd cover most of it and are thicker, so more opaque. 100 for six bucks. Toss them in the glovebox and deploy as needed.
That looks like something that won't last very long. I could be wrong, but my guess is that, being in the handles themselves, those screens are gonna get busted and they won't have made nearly enough from ad revenue to warrant replacing them on a regular basis. Here in the US we've got them built into the pumps so when you start pumping you get some loud ass commercials.
Very Cyberpunky. The bad parts of Cyberpunk that is.
Cover it with a trash bag to "protect your hand from the smell".
Tangentially related..
If you're in the US and have to use one of those pumps that play ads on the screen with loud audio: Button second from the top, right side of the screen, as soon as the audio starts. You're welcome.
That only sometimes works. Make sure you never go to that station again, and tell your friends. Buycotts work best if a lot of people boycott over a sustained period of time.
i now have an ev, so I can't join anymore.
Those ads are one of the temptors to me getting an ev. I'm pretty sure my next car will be one
get yourself one of those emergency glass breakers that are spring loaded.
resist the plutocracy
I can see this being popular at CostCo. You could order a pizza while you pump your gas, and have your order ready by the time you drop by their foodcourt.
My hands are usually preoccupied while pumping and looking at my phone.
From the viewpoint of Costco, "Out of sight, out of mind" would be the concern.
Costco is the only place in my area that doesn’t blast loud ads at the gas pumps.
Do you have a massive gas tank or just slow pumps? My truck's tank is 70 litres and fills up in less than 2 minutes. I just stand there staring into the distance like a crazy person.
Thats roughly the same as my car and yeah its about 2-3 min to fill, but i agree with that guy. I never just stand there holding it, use the lever to lock it and walk around for the few minutes. It releases its self once full so i cant think of any reason why i would want to stand there holding it.
Also this is only when i go on trips since i live in 1 of only 2 states that require attendants to pump our gas for us... i hate it and would rather do it myself. They are normally understaffed so they take forever to get to you and normally in a bad mood.
A few Shell stations near me started experimenting with staff who'll pump your fuel for you at no extra charge - and they'll even top off your washer- or blinker fluid if you want. You can tip them if you feel like it, but it's "optional."
Well, we Finns aren't exactly the most outgoing bunch, so tons of people just stopped going to those stations altogether. I think they've quietly ended the experiment by now and let folks pump their own gas again.
Its very annoying moving to the UK where those locks are always disabled, so you HAVE to squeeze the handle the whole time. One place even disabled the auto-stop when the tank is full, so you always spill a little.
I would smash the thing in rage and then end up paying to fix it because they caught it on camera.
There are warnings to not use a cellphone, but probably more to cover all bases or to prevent people from getting distracted. It's mandatory to have hoses that catch any vapours and return them to the underground storage tanks, so it's very unlikely the concentration in the open air will ever reach a point where ignition by cellphone is possible.
Also all nozzles here are designed to automatically switch off when your tank is full, even when you keep pressing the lever, so I'd say even the distraction part is pretty moot.
The sign is because American fuel pumps bizarrely have locks on them so users can leave them unattended while pumping. In the 90s fuel fires were thought to be caused by users being distracted by their phones and overfilling their vehicles.
American ones have sensors too and have had them as long as I've been alive.
Locks are illegal here.
Where is "here"?
"Bizarrely". Great feature and it doesn't cause fires. They don't keep pumping endlessly, you know--they stop automatically. And they are very much not locks. They have tiny ridges which can hold the pump handle in place but which easily come undone.
Are you talking about pumps from the 90s?
I was taught the problem with lockable handles became apparent in the 00's when E85 became a thing, as it ignites much more easily from static discharge than gasoline or diesel. Maybe I was taught incorrectly, maybe you guys had E85 earlier than us (Sweden).
I was incorrect. The problem is E85 has no problem burning down into the tank, where a large pressure increase could make the tank rupture and a large fire break out. Petrol kills the fire if the ratio fule:air becomes too rich, E85 does not.
In the 90s ... users being distracted by their phones
Do you have a source for that? Cell phones were rare in the 90s. Even then, they weren't "smart phones" by any sense - they were just used for talking. No text, no apps, no games. Cell phones didn't become common distractions until the early 00s.
America got addicted to “convenience”. TV remotes, fair play. But then they had to go too far.
They have automatic shutoff valves tho.
I've never seen one of those warnings, and I always use my cell phone. Barring a catastrophic failure of the device, how the fuck is my cell phone going to cause a spark? Sounds like a bullshit excuse to get you to leave your phone in the car so you're stuck watching their shitty ads.
Does the ad need to be playing to dispense fuel or would these work just fine if they got accidentally dropped really hard?
Take a knife and jam it into the speakers, if you're careful you can just make it look like you're leaning in the pump while you gut them through the speaker holes. If you can get the wires you can make it stop entirely lol.
Guess they had to follow EVs lol. Some EV stations near me have big ass signs that show advertisements. It’s not enough you’re paying to charge your car, you also need to be shown more ads.
I’m just grateful my car doesn’t show it inside.
AFAIK, the ones with ads are free to use. None of the Electrify America, Blink, Tesla, or Chargepoint stations I've used have them.
Also, you generally don't stand outside like a dope while charging. I think the ads are generally targeted to whoever is in the area.
That’s how it used to be in my area. Amazon Fresh stores and Kohl’s stores and some grocery stores had free charging through Shell with these big signs showing ads. Now Shell is charging but double dipping with the ads too.
But they have the absolute worst, unreliable network. I just tried charging tonight and the damn app didn’t even know there was a charger here. So I am watching the ads as I try to figure out how to pay to charge my car lol. Maybe that’s their trick since I can never seem to actually charge my car at one.
it's hygiene. hundreds of people put their hands on that thing every single day. those hands could've been anywhere.
Petrol is dermally toxic
How would someone get gas on their hands while filling?
A couple drops on your car or pants I could see if you're impatient, but on your hands? It only takes a moment of waiting to let those last few drops settle down.
If they gave em at mine I would, I use homemade hand sanitiser in a aloe bottle I have in the car.
This would be acceptable and even cool if they would put it beside another pump with the same fuel but without the ads and with a different price. So you can verify that the ads are actually saving you money.
That's their purpose. Do you pay for websites or apps with ads? Do you get ads on paid websites or apps? (Yes i know there are exceptions)
If the savings are not for me then neither is this gas station.
No, their purpose is to increase shareholder/executive profits.
Yes, clearly. This is my point. If they had made it about saving money for the customer then it would be acceptable. They absolutely could have. But they didn't, so fuck them.
Ads can save you money in all sorts of places, it's very common. Take Netflix, you can pay less with ads ,or pay to have ads removed.
This would be pay less for gas with ads, or pay more without.
Ads aren't saving you money though. The version with ads costs more than the version without ads used to. You're already paying more.
Prices are always going to go up because of inflation and changes in service.
Netflix started as a mail in DVD swap. Then they showed content from other companies, then they tried making their own content, then they went heavy into making their own content, then they started making games you can play, then they started doing live streams.
It goes on and on, and that was never going to stay the same price.
There are thousands of games / apps you can use for free. How? Ads. You know what you can also often do? Pay to get rid of those ads.
American here, do you have to hold that while filling? Is this a weird cultural thing, or is this overstated?
Why would they spill? They have automatic shutoff valves over here.
There are many scenarios, such as the user not putting the spout far enough in, or the spout being pulled out by someone tripping on the hose, etc... It's obviously rare, but when it happens it's really messy, and dangerous
Shit, you've gotta hold it in NY, but you're not allowed to pump your own gas in NJ and OR.
Idk, maybe they have. I wasn't allowed to pump in 2024, and in 2025 I rented an EV while I was there.
I never quite figured out what's the problem holding the nozzle for less than 2 minutes while filling up.
Because its unnecessary. The very simple technology exists where you don't have to. Why do something needless like that just because?
Lukoil apparently, you can see the same red-white colors in the reflection of the car.
Seeing this makes me want to scream and cry
a can of black spray paint might do the job well.
But don't don't you want that ice cold Pepsi™?
What station is this? I want to make sure I never go there.
I found a patch for the problem.
How much gas a liter?
...and the plastic gloves. I always used them for diesel fuel.
People who complain about AI and crypto power waste, this is 1000 times worst use of energy.
This uses CONSIDERABLY less energy tho.
You have a pointy object?
Who gives a fuck.
That's a fair point. I have no problem with people wearing a glove as a barrier between themselves and a gas pump (those pumps are fucking gross) but I'll concede that there's a better option than a plastic glove.
@lemmy.world
This is a community for designs specifically crafted to make the experience worse for the user. This can be due to greed, apathy, laziness or just downright scumbaggery.
go to feed...
@lemmy.world
This is a community for designs specifically crafted to make the experience worse for the user. This can be due to greed, apathy, laziness or just downright scumbaggery.
go to feed...
Shell gas stations in the US have been showing ads on the main machine for years, I've never seen them on the handle before. I hate it. I would expect them to break "accidentally" quite often.
save