What's one highly extolled piece of media that you absolutely cannot stand in any way shape or form.

3 days ago by SwissArmyKazoo to c/asklemmy

For me if I had to pick a good contender it would be the UK version of The Office.

I know many tend to debate how Ricky Gervais really fell off and how he repugnantly acts like a whiny centrist edgelord but me personally IMO I actually don't think he was ever funny not even a little.

His big break through television was just so painful to sit through it's so charismatically boring the characters are completely generic at best (notably Tim) or straight up insufferably unlikable at worst (especially the protagonist David FUCKING Brent) and most importantly the humour is just embarrassing.

Always seemed like The Thick Of It but without the nuisance tongue in cheek and charming satire.

9point6 89 points 3 days ago

A big part of why many of the things in this thread haven't aged well, is because a lot of what made these shows original and unique was copied to death following the fame of the original.

If you weren't there for the original release of a piece of media, there's a good chance you're not necessarily seeing it in the context where the accolades make sense.

Seinfeld basically invented the 3 camera sitcom and a lot of the key tropes in the format. If you go back today having not watched it before, the vast majority of it just comes across as a boring sitcom, because every sitcom to follow took notes from the way they did Seinfeld.

It's the same with the UK office, it basically invented the modern mockumentary format as well as the cringe comedy era that followed (and gave us things like peep show). If you look back now without that context, it just looks like a generic combination of both those things.

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ytsedude 52 points 3 days ago

I believe "I Love Lucy" is credited with inventing or popularizing the three camera sitcom. Not to dampen's "Seinfeld"s contributions or the point of your comment, but I just wanted to add that small correction.

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marzhall 19 points 2 days ago path: 0 24346737 24354693, hotness: undefined, score: 19, children: 0
HobbitFoot 19 points 2 days ago

Seinfeld didn't invent the three camera sitcom, but it was important in creating modern sitcoms that didn't have a lesson to learn at the end of redeeming protagonists.

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MonkeMischief 1 point a day ago

Ahh so THAT'S what they meant with the whole "It's about nothing!" thing...

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aesthelete 6 points 2 days ago

The Office (US) pretty much killed laugh tracks in US sitcoms.

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Terrapinjoe 76 points 3 days ago

The James Cameron Avatar movies.

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ccunning 26 points 3 days ago

They’re so bad.

…well the first one was. Didn’t bother with any after that…

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FatVegan 8 points 2 days ago

I thought the wecond one was way better and more intereating than the first one. It even made me genuinely sad at one point. I watched like 15 or 20min of the third one and found unwatchable. I'm not saying you should watch the second one, because it's a masterpiece or something, but i thought that if they keep that pace, maybe the third one will be good are something. It's still a technical marvel, at least the first one at the time and the second one for the insane water scenes and water physics and time and effot that went into it. The third one looks a lot more like a greenscreen movie.

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lightnsfw 1 point a day ago

The first 2 are pretty much the same plot so you're not missing much. Not sure about the 3rd one not interested in it.

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lichtmetzger 2 points a day ago

It also has basically the same plot with the same enemies. Except they added a red lady villain that is weirdly sexualized and a kid gets magic powers - because nature.

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LadyButterfly 15 points 3 days ago

Utter snoozefest I didn't get the hype at all

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LemmyFeed 18 points 3 days ago

I lost all respect for the movie and the entire franchise after hearing "unobtainium" as the name of the super rare space mineral. Nearly walked out of the theater.

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_stranger_ 3 points a day ago

I can't remember if they ever refer to it as anything else in that movie but I actually appreciated this scene in the first movie for two reasons:

Info dumps irritate me in sci fi. He's like the main guy in charge talking to one of his lead scientists. They both absolutely fucking know why they're there. They know what it's called and what it's for. He's spelling it out for our benefit without breaking in-world character. If, in-world, someone started pedantically outlining what the rocks were for to their lead scientists, it would be the equivalent of calling them an idiot. Calling it "unobtainium" is like saying "we've had this argument before, I remember everything you said last time, you know everything I'm about to tell you, and nothing you or I do will change what's happening because you cant get it anywhere else and oh yeah it's worth a fuck load of money".

I can't remember if they later retcon that into being the actual name, but in that moment, it didn't sound like the actual name, it sounded like slang being used informally during a semi heated discussion.

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MonkeMischief 3 points a day ago

Whether or not that was the original intent I LOVE this interpretation. I like to be entertained and err on the side of "Maybe this is a deliberate choice these very smart and passionate people made to smooth out a story."

Sometimes I feel like people get mad that they aren't just dropped into a completely fleshed out imaginary world.

It's entertainment delivered to them as they relax in a chair, requiring zero effort on their part, and they make it a goal to nitpick whatever reminds them this slice of imagination was designed by humans, and isn't actually a fully functional parallel universe they can literally isekai into to escape the mundanity of modern existence.

Critic culture is overrated, and I wish people would exercise their suspension of disbelief, basically. Hahaha

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tal 10 points 3 days ago

When did you watch it? When it came out, it was technically impressive for the computer-generated graphics, which included a lot of highly-detailed and expansive "organic" stuff like forests.

Here's some quotes from the Roger Ebert review from the time:

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/avatar-2009

Like “Star Wars” and “LOTR,” “Avatar” employs a new generation of special effects. Cameron said it would, and many doubted him. It does. Pandora is very largely CGI. The Na’vi are embodied through motion capture techniques, convincingly. They look like specific, persuasive individuals, yet sidestep the eerie Uncanny Valley effect. And Cameron and his artists succeed at the difficult challenge of making Neytiri a blue-skinned giantess with golden eyes and a long, supple tail, and yet–I’ll be damned. Sexy.

Cameron promised he’d unveil the next generation of 3-D in “Avatar.” I’m a notorious skeptic about this process, a needless distraction from the perfect realism of movies in 2-D. Cameron’s iteration is the best I’ve seen — and more importantly, one of the most carefully-employed. The film never uses 3-D simply because it has it, and doesn’t promiscuously violate the fourth wall.

I mean, I remember being underwhelmed after I went to watch Avatar with a friend who was deeply impressed, but it did show off a lot of render capability for the time. I'd call it more impressive as a tech demo.

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Damage 5 points 2 days ago

I watched it in 3D too and was blown away

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novibe 5 points 2 days ago

It’s way beyond a tech demo. Each Avatar movie invented dozens of new techniques. They actually film using cameras. They do a CGI movie with cameras, filming real actors acting. And they become huge blue aliens, while being filmed on a camera. It’s truly insane. I don’t like the movies themselves, but the BTS for them is crazy.

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MonkeMischief 2 points a day ago

And that sort of thing totally DOES permeate throughout the industry. Whenever Pixar or Weta(RIP?) or Cameron or DreamWorks or whoever invent something REALLY COOL. . .

. . .At some point we eventually get it in Blender, and I think that's neat.

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Lumisal 3 points 2 days ago

Didn't expect this is how I found out Roger Ebert was a furry

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SethranKada 5 points 2 days ago

The plot sucks and the characters are forgettable, but that's not the point. The point is the graphics, the locations, the crazy wildlife and eywa. The neural queues and the floating islands. Its a masterclass in world building, and has been an endless source of inspiration.

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lightnsfw 2 points a day ago

The first time I saw the first one in the theater I was blown away. Then I went and saw it again with someone else and paid more attention to the plot the second time and ....yeah.

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Blubber28 10 points 3 days ago

Great example of; just because it was a technical masterpiece, that doesn't make a movie good. The special effects were outstanding for the time, and still hold up very well. That is something I will always praise it for, but it is the only thing worth praising about it. It really is a very polished turd, in that sense.

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agamemnonymous 2 points 2 days ago

Yeah I saw it in IMAX 3D and it was certainly a spectacle. The visuals were phenomenal, but the film itself was otherwise completely forgettable.

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thisbenzingring 2 points 3 days ago

I've never seen them, probably not going to either

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wewbull 1 point 18 hours ago

...as opposed to the M. Night Shamalan movie?

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SethranKada 0 points 2 days ago

We will never get along

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notsosure 76 points 3 days ago

My aunt Gisela promised to bring me into touch with my father. In reality, she simply darkened the room and, with a lowered voice, gave a bad imitation of my deceased dad. That’s one medium I could do without.

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TargaryenTKE 15 points 2 days ago

Funny and original comment. Nicely done

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OS2Warp 71 points 2 days ago

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Kennystillalive 52 points 3 days ago

For me it's Friends. I don't get all the hype about it until today. I tried watching a few episodes but it was nothing special. It was just a sitcom, nothimg special about it.

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Deestan 49 points 3 days ago

It was special because "everyone" watched it. The meh or bad parts were whatever, while the exciting or good parts were something you could talk with all your friends about at school. This made the good parts uniquely good.

So unless you happened to both be alive and watch it when it ran, it just won't be amazing.

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Sergio 13 points 3 days ago

Alternately, you were "the kind of person who didn't watch Friends", which still made it a cultural touchstone.

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lennybird 10 points 3 days ago

Same here. Personally I thought the British comedy Coupling was so much better done.

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flabbergast 6 points 3 days ago

Except the last season. That was bad.

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wewbull 2 points 17 hours ago

No Geoff. No show.

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Thassodar 5 points 3 days ago

I haven't seen a full episode but Big Train seems like it had some legs, and was right around The Office timeframe.

My favorite scene with a VERY young Simon Pegg: https://youtu.be/VKH9ECC_Qa4?is=sntN4AxaEXgPHFsg

The US Coupling could have been the new Friends, but they bungled it just as bad as That 80s Show.

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wewbull 1 point 17 hours ago

I rewatched Coupling a little while ago. There are some aspects which have not aged well. Anything Geoff centric is still pretty good. Anything Patrick centric is "yikes" and some of the relationship stuff is a bit messed up too.

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EndlessNightmare 39 points 2 days ago

Disturbed's cover of "Sound of Silence." I like the original Simon & Garfunkel, or at least the more upbeat version of it. And I like Disturbed (see below). But this cover absolutely blows.

Yes, I know the lead singer is a grade A shitbag. I liked the band long before I knew anything about any of it and have since stopped listening to them.

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Summzashi 10 points a day ago

God thank you. I fucking despise that cover. It's honestly such a dumb fucking take on that song.

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HotsauceHurricane 6 points 2 days ago

If I may add their cover of Land of Confusion by Genesis to the list. It was disappointing.

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WolfLink 33 points 2 days ago

Big Bang Theory

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rob_t_firefly 23 points 2 days ago path: 0 24361344 24365531, hotness: undefined, score: 23, children: 1
boaratio 32 points 3 days ago

Dave Matthews band. Also, any "jam" band in general.

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Widdershins 9 points 2 days ago

Dont forget what they did on the Kinzie Street Bridge in Chicago.

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OS2Warp 5 points 2 days ago

Ok, what did they do?

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Widdershins 4 points 2 days ago

Dumped a bus load of shit and piss off the bridge onto an architectural tour boat full of people.

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BigBananaDealer 4 points 2 days ago

none of the band members were in the bus at the time

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Widdershins 6 points 2 days ago

The shit and piss they dumped out of the bus didn't appear from nowhere. Even if he didn't dump it himself dave matthews supplied the shit and piss for it to happen.

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boaratio 3 points 2 days ago

That is the stuff of legend.

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hansolo 6 points 3 days ago

100% with you on this.

I just don't get the appeal at all. I knew a couple that were all about String Cheese Incident. Finally listened to their stuff...fucking 15 minute long songs of fairly standard 90's ironic music zapped by bloat ray. Hard pass.

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thisbenzingring 6 points 3 days ago

You gotta be taking some psychedelics and want to dance, I'm not into it either. But I have plenty of friends who are and it makes them happy to have a show that lasts for long sets and they can get their freak on

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agamemnonymous 5 points 2 days ago

I've seen String Cheese Incident live a few times at a festival. It was honestly a pretty good show, and I think that's pretty much the only way jam bands work. When everyone's a bit high and dancing and the band is playing off the crowd, it's great.

I listened to a couple of their tracks at home, and had no interest in listening to any more. Jam bands are only good live.

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hansolo 2 points 2 days ago

That's a fair point! Thanks.

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Adderbox76 4 points 2 days ago

Well, that's just what the ass-crack bandit would say to throw us off their trail, isn't it...

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LunarLoony 3 points 2 days ago

Clearly they don't have two ears connected to a heart

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SwissArmyKazoo 32 points 3 days ago

The US Office is unironically a better show because it understood what path it wanted to take as it went on and stop trying to rely heavily on cringe comedy to focus more on absurdist but still relatable scenarios.

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cRazi_man 21 points 3 days ago

There's a huge regional and cultural aspect to what you're saying. You're comparing slapstick in-your-face American comedy to subtle cringe British comedy. The Office is an excellent example since it is exactly the same script used in both initially. Watching S1E1 for British vs American version is an excellent comparison of styles. I don't like British comedy particularly and don't even like The Office, but watching both back to back, I would prefer the British version.

There are a number of amazing British comedies. They are very different to American. British comedies are understated and a bit miserable. Try "I'm Alan Partridge".....such an amazing comedy.

Equally I've tried watching Curb Your Enthusiasm with British friends and a large portion can't stand that for how cringe it is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

There's no superior choice in matters of art and taste. Just different flavours.

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MurrayL 13 points 3 days ago

There’s a big cultural difference between Curb and Partridge - cringe isn’t universal!

Specifically, Larry in Curb has a distinctly American sense of individualism. He does what he wants and doesn’t care if someone doesn’t like him for it. The cringe comes from his attempts to enforce his own set of unwritten social values on others.

Alan Partridge is the exact opposite - fundamentally insecure and desperate for approval. His cringe comes from lack of self-awareness and trying to fake social status, which is painfully obvious to a British audience with our deeply ingrained sense of class.

Ultimately, taste is taste, but I think that goes some way towards explaining why some people like one or the other but not both.

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shawn1122 1 point 2 days ago

Part of the longevity of the US version was the decision to make characters likable, especially Michael Scott / the manager. The UK version leans hard into the cringe / social ineptitude and gives the manager essentially no redeeming qualities.

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Sergio 1 point 3 days ago

Good points. iirc, the US Office almost got cancelled the first season. The type of humor in the first episode didn't really work for US audiences. Only after the series found its own style did the series really thrive.

Personally I think Office UK is awesome. The whole Training session is freakin hilarious.

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SirSamuel 15 points 3 days ago

I can't watch The Office.

My empathy makes me feel super uncomfortable watching people do socially mean or cringe things. I enjoyed most of Parks and Rec, but I didn't like the way they treated Garry, and almost stopped watching because of that running gag.

Oddly enough, I devoured The Bear. It's not high anxiety or intensity that turns me off, it's the banal meanness that some express that I can't stand. The Bear is intense, but the characters feel genuine and honest

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kobra 4 points 3 days ago

but the payoff for Garry was SO good.

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Ozymandias1688 6 points 3 days ago

I nearly stopped after the first few episodes. They are really bad, I just cannot see the appeal of cringe comedy.

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bizarroland 5 points 3 days ago

I would say the first season is the worst, and then after that it finds its footing and it doesn't rely on cringe comedy but actually humorous situations.

There is still a little bit of cringe after that, but the majority of it is in the first season.

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Foreigner 27 points 3 days ago

Have a few in mind:

Catcher in the Rye. Holden is insufferable and I found it baffling that adults expected me to relate to him as a teen.

Grease aged very poorly and I do not understand the hype (is it because John Travolta is wearing tight pants?)

Family guy. The ship that launched a thousand cringe as fuck "adult animation" shows. Yes, I'm salty as hell about it.

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chunes 14 points 3 days ago

It terrifies me that there are people walking around out there who feel seen by Holden Caulfield.

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Rcklsabndn 9 points 2 days ago

Just a bunch of phoneys.

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elephantium 1 point a day ago

IDK, I can see that making sense if you read it as a teen.

As adults? Absolutely. But there are phases we all grow out of (well, most of us).

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MonkeMischief 1 point a day ago

Or to reference another overrated work: John Galt. Lol

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dreksob 9 points 2 days ago

A lot of the hype about Grease is nostalgia, no doubt about that.

But a lot of the rest is that a loooot of the songs are both catchy and very easy to understand. The movie also forms a social dynamic that is easy to understand for kids.

We learned to sing "Summer Nights" in school, and then friends and I would sing the song over and over, adding more and more childish humor that we found hilarious (because...kids). We also instantly got the implied social dynamic (boys just want to get sex, girls want to have mushy romance).

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CultLeader4Hire 3 points 2 days ago

Family guy has always been bad, I lived through its peak and it was so painful

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Rug_Pisser 5 points 2 days ago

Oh you think that's bad? What about the time I fell off of that elephant and broke my ankle in 75 places while a monkey played la cucaracha on a tambourine?

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MonkeMischief 2 points a day ago

(wince) "aHHHHhhh!...(wince)...Aaaaghh!!... It's in my raccoon wounds! :("

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rob_t_firefly 3 points 2 days ago

Catcher in the Rye was always an unforgivable whiney crap-mound of a book. Its notoriety is based on its banning, and the larger issue of whether people should be allowed to read books with swears, misanthropes, and sexual references in them, but there are and were so many better books featuring those things out there.

Family Guy is a fascinating case of a crappy show insisting upon itself so hard that it successfully got itself uncancelled and forced into pop culture as a zombie endlessly repeating itself on the level of its inspiration and closest rival The Simpsons.

I also loathe Grease but its general appeal is pretty easy to explain: it came out in the 1970s as a rose-tinted nostalgia piece for white middle-class boomers who grew up in the 1950s and, as so many people of all ages do, idealized their childhood era as when things were so cool and simple. (Spoiler to folks of all eras: things weren't actually any simpler when you were young, you were just shielded from more of the bullshit than you are now.) It was the same nostalgia that fueled the runaway success of Happy Days on TV in that era, though at least that show managed to be a functional sitcom with more substance to it than the empty-headed misogyny-flavored story of Grease.

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GrayBackgroundMusic 26 points 2 days ago

Kinda surprised I didn't see breaking bad already listed. I guess I'm one of the few who dislikes it. I don't like tragedies in general. Life is already a tragedy.

I'm sure it was extremely well executed and totally worth making, but it's not my flavor of ice cream.

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itsjustachairmary 6 points 2 days ago

It started out a lot funnier and slowly became darker over time. I think I remember Gilligan saying this was a conscious choice, to grow darker in tone over time.

Anyway, that's what hooked a lot of people initially, and a lot of them stuck around for the drama that followed

Genuinely though the Talking Pillow scene is still my favorite. As someone who lost a dad to cancer the conversation was morbidly funny and real to me, with the pillow as a perfect set piece.

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dreksob 25 points 2 days ago

It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

Its not just that the humor is unfunny (and basically just bigotry porn with a side of cringe), its that none of the "friends" in the show are even friends with each other. The whole show is just a bunch of assholes being bigoted assholes and then you are supposed to think that its funny.

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bluesheep 21 points 2 days ago

Well, yeah, the whole show is based around each character being the worst narcissistic and self-serving asshole you can imagine, and then some.

I personally find it really funny, but I can sort of see why some people don't like it

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impairedimperator 13 points 2 days ago

This is a style that I first noticed with Archer, and it is very hard to do well. I enjoyed Archer, I enjoyed some of Rick and Morty, but I also recognize that I'd refuse to engage with someone like that in real life. Iasip takes it to the extreme of being genuinely unpleasant.

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f4f4f4f4f4f4f4f4 12 points 2 days ago

They take their twisted logic and antics to such extremes that it resembles a live-action version of some mid-20th century American cartoons. Same level of slapstick cruelty but the plotlines make it all more premeditated and sociopathic.

(I laugh hysterically at it, but I totally understand anyone who thinks it's depraved!)

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wewbull 0 points 18 hours ago

Not depraved, just pitiful.

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f4f4f4f4f4f4f4f4 1 point 10 hours ago

Danny DeVito is still "pitifully" entertaining 50 years later, with his studio producing the longest-running American live-action sitcom.

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GreenKnight23 12 points 2 days ago

The whole show is just a bunch of assholes being bigoted assholes

yes

and then you are supposed to think that its funny.

do it

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agamemnonymous 10 points 2 days ago

I think it's supposed to be Seinfeld but moreso. Part of the humor is watching these assholes screw themselves over with their terrible plans.

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EndlessNightmare 4 points 2 days ago

I like it, but it seems really overrated.

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IronBird 3 points 2 days ago path: 0 24353163 24355428, hotness: undefined, score: 3, children: 0
mavu 24 points 2 days ago

3 body problem. What a fucking terrible shit waste of paper.

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Voroxpete 16 points 2 days ago

The worst part is that if you somehow drag yourself through the first book and rightly declare that it sucks, fans will all say "Oh, yeah, the first book is bad, but it gets sooooo much better after that!"

This is a fucking lie. The books actually get progressively worse at a genuinely shocking rate.

Do you like reading a series of Wikipedia articles about all these really cool ideas the author had? Do you like being slapped in the face with moments of truly egregious sexism? Do you like characters with zero defining traits? Do you like entire plotlines built around Death Note style "I know that you know that I know that you know that I know..." style bullshit that falls apart the moment you think about it for five seconds? Do you like like awful solutions to the Fermi Paradox? Oh boy do we have the book series for you!

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mavu 8 points a day ago

this is the definitive review. 10/10, no notes.

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Aatube 2 points a day ago

Death Note style "I know that you know that I know that you know that I know..." style bullshit that falls apart

yeah if you didn’t like that part of death note (which i guess would be another of your responses to this question) you definitely wouldn’t like that plot line, which PSA to other commenters takes up about 1/4 of the second book. (i’m also curious to hear why you think it falls apart and debate it though i presume you wouldn’t be interested in debating this book lol. i liked the plotline partly because you also have to deduce what he’s going to do and going on through his mind)

awful solutions to the Fermi paradox

the Dark Forest Hypothesis has been around and proposed by physicists decades before the book popularized it, though not with that name; it is plausible that Liu independently thought of this. Stephen Hawking is a major proponent of this hypothesis.

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Voroxpete 3 points 14 hours ago

OK, so, the most important thing to understand about the Dark Forest hypothesis is that Cixin Liu is not necessarily making a serious argument for it as a realistic model of how the universe works. The novels are works of fiction, and while I will trash Cixin's prose to the ends of the Earth (it is dire, and absolutely none of my complaints have anything to do with translation; the shift from Chinese to English didn't magically replace dialogue and character action with endless tracts of dry narration, that's just how he writes, and it's bad), I think his grasp of themes is actually really, really good. I've often commented that I would love to see Liu take all of his ideas and collaborate with a better writer on putting them into text.

In the case of Remembrance of Earth's Past, the core themes of the series as a whole are all about altruism and cooperation, and the Dark Forest Hypothesis exists as a juxtaposition and foil to those ideas. He's not necessarily advocating for it, it just works for what his story is trying to say about the human condition. The Dark Forest is, in a sense, the ultimate villain of the series.

I also want to note that while earlier versions of the theory existed, there are subtle but important differences in how they're expressed. Hawking et al are/were proponents of the idea that aliens may be hiding, but The Dark Forest specifically presents the argument that no only is everyone hiding from Space Hitler, but that everyone is Space Hitler, as non-genocidal civilizations are inevitably wiped out. That's what I take issue with.

As for why I think the theory is - removed from it's context as a dark backdrop against which to write a story of hope - a crock of shit...

Well, OK, I don't think it's a crock of shit in the sense that it's utterly impossible. But it's presented, especially by fans, as a kind of inevitable logical assertion, a fait-a-complit that cannot be challenged because it's so utterly self-evident. This is nonsense. While the theory is technically possible, all of our available evidence suggests that it's extremely unlikely.

First, at a really basic level, 100% of our observations of intelligent species refute it. Humans constantly and enthusiastically blast our position into space, and the apparently irrefutable logic of the Dark Forest hypothesis hasn't slowed our enthusiasm for doing so by one iota.

"But humans are an outlier!"

Based on what evidence? We have zero empirical observations to base that claim on. And no, I'm not claiming that one (1) species constitutes a statistically significant observation for my argument; rather I'm pointing to the fact that our empirical observations arguing for dark forest are zero (0), and our empirical observations against are > 0, and at some point proponents of the theory kind of have to deal with that fact. It's just as absurd to claim that humans are an outlier as it is to claim that every species in the universe must inherently be like us.

What we do know that is all life on Earth with any degree of intelligence demonstrates curiosity. Curiosity is, as best we can tell, an essential component of applied intelligence. An incurious species will never smash a stick with a rock and learn the concept of a hammer. Curiosity compels us to want to learn about the unknown. Liu presents this idea that inter-species cooperation will always be an unbridgeable gap because truly alien creatures from truly alien environments will never be able to comprehend each other's goals and motivations, and that's frankly ludicrous. The drive to understand the unknown is what made the first ape pick up a burning stick and realise it could keep their tribe warm.

(Am I arguing that Project Hail Mary is basically a sufficient revocation of the Dark Forest Hypothesis entirely on its own? Broadly, yes.)

Further to the lack of evidence is the lack of any observable evidence of the ongoing galactic genocide that we are apparently endlessly surrounded by. We know when stars should die - we're actually pretty good at it - so spotting when stars are being blown up by civilisation destroying weaponry wouldn't be that hard.

Then we get to the fundamental flaws in the game theory. Liu proposes a forest full of hunters with rifles shooting each other from the darkness, but never once contemplates what happens if the hunter you fire at has a friend. Given the nature of the weaponry employed in the story, which is never shown to be capable of destroying more than one star system at a time, that friend doesn't even have to be an allied civilisation, it can just be an extra-solar colony. The entire logic of the "Always strike first" conclusion falls apart at this point. You detect a star system that contains a nascent alien civilisation, you blow it up with a photoid. Turns out you detected one of that species first extra-solar colonies, and their homeworld immediately conceals itself, builds photoids, finds you and kills you. Hard to do, but entirely worth the effort now that you've made it essential to their survival.

The hunters gun reveals him when he fires, and why shouldn't it? There's no reason to believe that methods of interstellar destruction are entirely undetectable to observers. Logically, opening fire is a terrible decision; you have declared to everyone around you that you operate on a first strike principle, making yourself an immediate target for destruction, potentially by a group of altruistic civilisations who will immediately choose to cooperate against you. It's really not hard to formulate the logic of the dark forest in such a way that, rather than only paranoid, genocidal civilisations surviving, it is the exact opposite; that cooperators have an inherent advantage that would lead to only cooperators surviving. The theory as presented just relies on assuming that all of its suppositions are correct while ignoring alternative possibilities.

The argument the theory presents against the likelihood of cooperation is the notion that we exist in a universe of finite resources, but increasingly our observations of the universe show that there is a LOT more matter than there is life, and at a certain level of technology all matter is usable resources. Basically once we can start printing carbon atoms we're close enough to Star Trek replicators as makes no odds. Carbon is literally the fourth most abundant element in the universe. The Trisolarans can turn protons into multidimensional computers but they can't fabricate food from the carbon in asteroids? That is an absolutely demented proposal. In the first Culture novel Ian Banks lays out how the Culture is basically undefeatable in conventional warfare because they've completely transcended the need for territory. Planets don't matter when you can build spaceships the size of continents. The idea that advanced space-faring civilisations would be coming to blows over resources beggars belief. The Trisolarans have already demonstrated the technology required to just become a completely space-faring civilization.

Hell, if the entire driver of a lack of cooperation is scarcity of resources, why the fuck would we be blowing up each other's star systems with all those valuable life-supporting planets? If the existence of advanced life is somehow utterly dependent on life-supporting planets in a way that is fundamentally unsolvable, you'd be insane to go around destroying them.

None of this is fundamentally dispositive to the theory. That's not what I'm trying to claim. If it has a 0.0001% chance of being true then it's still plausible. My point is simply that in order for it to be meaningful there are so many specific assumptions that would first have to be proven, and which, frankly, fly in the face of what available evidence we have. Essentially, we would have to be entirely wrong in many of our current observations of the state of the universe. You might as well assert that the moon is actually made of cheese, it's just buried deep beneath all the bits we've studied. It's a theory that seems entirely logical, as long as you ignore the vast majority of what we know about the universe.

And I do want to reiterate what I said at the top; the Dark Forest Hypothesis is almost certainly a bad theory because it's not meant to stand up as a theory. It's more than likely just meant to be a piece of sufficiently plausible sci-fi technobabble - just like warp drive - that it can support what the story is trying to say, not an actual theory that stands up to scrutiny. I just dislike that a) it really does rely on a LOT of bad assumptions, to the point where I was questioning it throughout the story, and b) people act like it is some kind of irrefutable masterstroke of game theory.

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Aatube 1 point 14 hours ago

I do agree! (and that was a delightful reply to read) I'm just still upset that this was called truly "awful solutions to the Fermi paradox", because physicists have entertained the possibility that these assumptions are true. Even if it is very unlikely, at least the principles of discovery and that Earth's more-advanced civilizations have destroyed the less-advanced one in nearly every contact are likely enough that consensus is apparently to not broadcast, just to be safe. According to https://warwick.ac.uk/..., that is their reasoning.

TL;DR: I agree that it's very unlikely (and that it's made as a fictional device; to do classic science fiction, essentially) but I disagree objectively that it is "awful" lol.

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baggachipz 2 points a day ago

Stephen Hawking is a major proponent of this hypothesis.

was

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Aatube 2 points a day ago

oops. just because he’s dead now and not because he changed his mind, right?

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Aatube 2 points a day ago

fans will all say "Oh, yeah, the first book is bad

i don’t think that’s how it goes. the fans i know all say both books one and two are really good (second one being better than the first of course, but no the first book is still awesome) while the third one is controversial. i personally agree with that except i also like the third book though i agree that one did nothing to dissuade misogynist interpretations and there are little if any strong femm characters in the series

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ikidd 2 points 4 hours ago

You forgot the Deus Ex Machina explanation at the end that made literally everything before it a non sequitur.

And he had no new ideas. Anyone that reads that series and extolls the originality of the Dark Forest theory hasn't read any science fiction to speak of, let along Saberhagen's Berserker series from the better part of a century earlier. He had nothing new, he was a literature prof writing his first SF book and doing it way worse than any literature prof should ever be at writing.

Fucking garbage, I was angry and upset that I had wasted time reading that shit and wanted my money back. If anyone tells you that was great SF, you can safely turn your back and walk away, they have nothing useful to contribute to a conversation on the matter.

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ikidd 4 points 2 days ago

Preach.

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mrgoosmoos 4 points 2 days ago

I think I've read (or at least started reading) the book like three times and watched the show twice and I remember none of it

at least, I think it's that one. might have it mixed up with something else.

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mittyta 3 points 2 days ago

The only answer I can't understand. A great novel. I Chinese context was very fresh and interesting for me. Sometimes it seems amature, like fan fiction, like author is not a professional writer. But it makes it even better.

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jacksilver 3 points 2 days ago

I mean, I think you explain the reasoning in your own comment, the writing (at least in the English translation for me) was so rough that I couldn't get into it. I can't say I hated it, I just never got far into it because it couldn't keep my attention.

I'm surprised to hear someone say the poor writing was a plus for them. Why did that make you enjoy it more?

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mittyta 2 points a day ago

As I explained - it feeled fresh. I can't explain why, but I can't put it down while reading.

I don't try to convince people, who read this book, that it's great. I address people who haven't - you should give it a chance.

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mysticpickle 3 points a day ago

Oh my God, I thought it was just me. I usually consume a lot of sci-fi media in general and was like, "why can't I like this highly acclaimed work?"

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RodgeGrabTheCat 23 points 3 days ago

Anything anime. Lots love it, I hate it.

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lonefighter 16 points 3 days ago

Not liking anime is so isolating as a nerd because people find out I'm into nerdy stuff and all they want to do is recommend anime to me and talk about anime and I have to explain that I don't like anime and won't be watching that show they love (insert show here).

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RichardNixos 15 points 3 days ago

Ya'll be talking about anime like it's a genre but it's a medium

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tal 9 points 2 days ago

Yeah, but come on. Sure, you could depict anything with it, but in practice, it's correlated with content.

Chinese ink painting is a medium too, but people talking about it probably are not going to it for cyberpunk stuff.

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Damage 2 points 2 days ago

I mean, Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop, Great Teacher Onizuka, Frieren, DragonBall, and whatever are absolutely different genres and have practically nothing in common.

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Summzashi 8 points 3 days ago

Yeah but some people just can't stand the medium. Me included.

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tgirlschierke 1 point a day ago

Everything? Perfect Blue? Paprika? Angel's Egg? Tamala 2010: A Punk Cat in Space? Anne of Green Gables? Moomin? Belladonna of Sadness?

I'd be genuinely surprised if the answer was yes, as all of those wildly depart from the tropes people have in mind when anime is brought up.

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maxalmonte14 2 points 2 days ago

Never understood the "I don't like anime" mindset, of course everyone has the right to like and/or dislike anything they choose to, but as you said it's a medium. "I don't like anime" makes as much sense as "I don't like live action movies." It doesn't.

I guess "I don't like the way anime look," or, "I don't like the Japanese approach to storytelling" makes more sense.

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Katrisia 1 point a day ago

It makes sense to me because they're describing in a simple way the thing that they don't like. If you ask why, they'd probably tell you the reason. "I don't like the way anime looks" or "I don't like the Japanese approach to storytelling" or whatever...

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schipelblorp -2 points 3 days ago

Not liking “anime” is just saying “I watched a few hours of popular anime, didn't like it, assumed it's all like that and now I'll never be able to correct my opinion.”

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lonefighter 11 points 2 days ago

Personally, it's the art form I don't like. I couldn't say why, but there's something about the style of drawing people that I just can't get past.

I accept that I'm in the minority, and I'm not criticizing it or talking down on it in any way. I understand there's an incredible amount of love and talent that goes into it, it's just not for me. Think of it as someone who says they don't like the Mona Lisa, they aren't saying it isn't a famous painting or shouldn't be well known, they're just saying they prefer other styles of art.

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Lumisal -1 points 2 days ago

What's wrong with bugs bunny?

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SwissArmyKazoo 21 points 2 days ago

Woah surprised no one mentioned South Park yet, it quite common in discussions like this.

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khannie 10 points 2 days ago

I never really liked South Park (with occasional exceptions where it shone) but I loved the movie.

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njm1314 6 points 2 days ago

Honestly one of the best musicals I've ever seen.

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_stranger_ 6 points a day ago

They absolutely deserved the Oscar for that movie (almost literally any of its songs) over fucking Tarzan

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quediuspayu 3 points a day ago

It would have been fun to see the accepting speech

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RememberTheApollo_ 8 points 2 days ago

I don’t like it but I cut them some slack for their willingness to tackle some issues publicly and mock people who deserve it.

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AceFuzzLord 2 points 2 days ago

I think out of all the Adult Swim type shows ( Family Guy, Robot Chicken, American Dad, South Park, etcetera ), I cannot stand any of them besides King of the Hill or Futurama. So definitely gonna agree with you.

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LodeMike 8 points a day ago

I don't think any of the shows you listed are Adult Swim shows

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AceFuzzLord 2 points a day ago

I distinctly remember at least Family Guy, American Dad, and Robot Chicken airing on AD where I lived, so maybe I might be misremembering, but I meant those shows as in the style of show I'd expect to see on there. If I wasn't clear about that, my bad.

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LodeMike 2 points a day ago

Family Guy and American dad are famously fox shows made by Seth McFarlane. Plenty of networks do reruns.

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Sektor 1 point a day ago

Futurama is one of the best TV shows of all time, at least forst 5 seasons.

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Lemminary 21 points 2 days ago

Sports. I have little tolerance for it because every time a big event is on, people get incredibly obnoxious. They think they know better than the professional players, they keep making so much noise, it polarizes people into arbitrary bands and start talking shit like using that as an excuse to be a homophobic POS, sometimes they'll even riot because their team lost/won (da fuk), and even kill people over their favorite fucking team, and so much more. If the game is on I'd rather steer clear because it really brings out the worst in people.

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ccunning 20 points 3 days ago

Blade Runner
2001: A Space Odyssey
Citizen Kane

These movies are so well regarded and spoken so highly of (ok - maybe not Blade Runner); their champions are so passionate and enthusiastic, every time I hear folks go off on how great they are I get, once again, excited to watch them. But every time I try, I just can’t get into them. 2001 is a particular slog with its ~30 minute intro of no dialogue. It almost inevitably puts me to sleep before even the first word is spoken.

I hate that they’re so well regarded and I really want to enjoy them but I just can’t get into them.

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tal 16 points 3 days ago

Citizen Kane

@9point6@lemmy.world has a comment below stating that some of these are examples where a piece of media did something new and innovative that was so compelling that many subsequent pieces of media copied it, and thus whatever it was that the piece of media did failed to impress later audiences. For them, it was just the new normal. So the work was very influential...but maybe no longer stands out.

I've often seen Citizen Kane cited as being the poster child for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_Kane

The film's narrative structure, cinematography and themes have influenced countless filmmakers and films worldwide, asserting its place as a cornerstone in the history of cinema

EDIT:

https://thecinemaholic.com/...

‘Citizen Kane’: The Innovations, the Flaws, and the Films that it Influenced

EDIT2: @marzhall@lemmy.world linked to the Seinfeld is Unfunny trope on TVTropes, and it has an entry for Citizen Kane:

Citizen Kane, oftentimes trumpeted as "The Greatest Movie of All Time," tends to inspire "what's the big deal?" responses from modern viewers, especially since Post Modern movies have become the norm and the cinematography has influenced so many other films. And everyone knows what the twist at the end is.

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ccunning 11 points 3 days ago

Definitely true. I’ve heard the same and it’s another one of the reasons I want to appreciate it.

A other example of this that’s frequently cited and happened in my own life time which makes it easy to see first hand and understand is The Matrix/bullet-time.

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agamemnonymous 9 points 2 days ago

Citizen Kane is generally considered the origin of the "innovative media that's considered boring because everyone copied it so now it seems cliche" trope. It was a masterpiece when it came out, but it pioneered so much stuff that became commonplace. When a modern audience looks back at it, you just see the cliches, without realizing that they're only cliches because they were endlessly repeated afterward.

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TribblesBestFriend 8 points 3 days ago

This post made me angry because I’m one of the people that love this 3 movie and go passionate about them.

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BurgerBaron 5 points 2 days ago

2001: A Space Odyssey

I like behind the scenes footage far more than the movie. I can appreciate how it's made but I absolutely can't stand to actually watch the resulting movie.

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CultLeader4Hire 4 points 2 days ago

2001: A Space Odyssey is so insanely boring and pretentious, I’m still glad I watched it though because it’s very influential, you even see it in the Project Hail Mary movie, and it’s satisfying to have context to art but unless you’re really into watching films I wouldn’t suggest it to anyone

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Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In 3 points 2 days ago

They are worshipped because they were the first in their particular area (neon cyberpunk, Space FX, non-linear storytelling). Each has been improved on by so many other films that the originals pale in comparison.

They are classics, but not timeless.

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mrmorganiser 1 point 2 days ago

For blade runner the original film is awful. I didn't get the hype until I watched the directors cut which I personally thought was excellent.

2001 definitely overrated.

I enjoyed Citizen Kane though I completely understand why you wouldn't like it.

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EndlessNightmare 1 point 2 days ago

Blade Runner is sooo boring. I've tried watching it a few times and it just doesn't click for me.

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Sektor 1 point a day ago

Worst take of the thread, edgelord.

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Armok_the_bunny 20 points a day ago

Harry Potter, even ignoring how much of a piece of shit the author is the books just aren't particularly well thought out.

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lonefighter 19 points 3 days ago

Star Wars. I really wanted to like it, I'm a huge nerd, but I just am not into it. I watched 4 and 5 and got maybe an hour into 6 and got up and walked away. I was so bored with the whole thing.

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bluesheep 4 points 2 days ago

Never watched any star wars movie and at this points I've seen so many spoilers through memes that I am not very tempted to do so

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Summzashi 3 points 3 days ago

Save for most of the original trilogy, Star Wars turned into actual dogshit halfway through Return of the Jedi.

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mlg 18 points 2 days ago

The Office (All versions) because the movie "Office Space" exeedingly outshines the humor and plot of any of the TV shows.

As with most "comedy" shows it's actually a drama disguised with a specific setting and a couple of meme characters to make it look like a comedy.

I'm convinced people only watched that stuff because they were all in on office drama at work/school but didn't want to admit to that fact.

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anon_8675309 18 points 2 days ago

American football. Fox turned it into a video game you can’t play.

Mens soccer. Stop with the fucking cry baby drama! Women’s soccer is better in this regards.

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did_you_find_violets 18 points 3 days ago

Succession for me. I couldn’t stand it. The acting always felt way too self-conscious, like “look at me acting my ass off” instead of anything natural. The dialogue and humor felt really try-hard too, and I hated the cinematography, especially all those weird close-up shots.

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fibojoly 18 points 3 days ago

I'm curious if you're from the UK, OP, because I think this colours your perception of the The Office very much. For the record I loathe both, but The Office UK is a typical British comedy of taking the absolute piss of the characters, who are irredeemable fools one and all. You re not supposed to find them funny, or like them. You're supposed to laugh at them. That's the usual expectation, with British comedy.

Americans seem to have great difficulty with that concept, and can't seem to handle a protagonist that is made fun of.

Again, not defending the show itself. Just saying you need to be aware of this approach when you watch British comedy in general. The common language should not make you forget the ocean of cultural differences in between.

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Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In 3 points 2 days ago

Now it makes sense why so few British comedies work in the US. The US only knows how to laugh at the hero's jokes.

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bobbyfiend 17 points a day ago

I'm just here to see if anyone has any wrong opinions about something I love.

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Voroxpete 17 points 2 days ago

You're right and you should say it. Ricky Gervais has always been weird and off-putting and the idea that he was ever good has always baffled me. I never enjoyed The Office. When my dad tried to get me into Extras I just found all of Ricky's parts annoying. When my sister told me how great Derek was, I just found the whole thing simultaneously tasteless and bland, like it couldn't commit to being offensive but didn't put the work into being real. His standup is often clever, but always the kind of clever that is let down by a complete lack of emotional intelligence. The man just does not understand people, but thinks he really does.

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HenriVolney 17 points 3 days ago

Reality TV

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Paradachshund 16 points 2 days ago

I've got a good one: Andor. People can't stop raving about it and I had to force myself to finish it. Deathly boring all the way through. I didn't like anyone in it so I couldn't root for anyone, and it was just a slog til the end. Crucify me star wars fans, I know you want to. 😇

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BabyVi 1 point 2 days ago

Same, I tried to watch it twice but never made it through.

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spicehoarder -2 points 2 days ago

I think it's the Disney adults who fangirl over the newslop.

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Aatube 3 points a day ago

how is Andor supposed to appeal to “Disney adults”?

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ikidd 16 points 2 days ago

I thought the American version of The Office wasn't much better. Just constant cringe humor, it's exhausting.

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justdaveisfine 16 points 3 days ago

This is going to be a semi-spicy take, but World of Warcraft.

I had a lot of friends who were into it during Cataclysm but I had a hard time getting into it despite it being THE game everyone was obsessing over. It got to the point where I was struggling to get them to play anything else and it pretty much split our gaming group.

Even after all these years, some of them still play it and its still a big piece of their gaming sessions.

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HobbitFoot 2 points 2 days ago

It has some hooks that I can see people liking, but it is pretty understood that the game isn't for everyone.

I can a dumbed down version of it being played a lot in retirement homes.

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tal 6 points 2 days ago

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/...

Anyone else retired and gaming?

long thread

There was a hardcore group at a local FL retirement home a couple years back. Youngest was 83. Guild cleared everything with ease.

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mittyta 16 points 3 days ago

I am trying to watch "The Wire" (on ep. 10) because it is one the highest rated show on imdb, but it doesn't click in me. It is high quality product. Acting, music, camera work are all good. But is just boring for me, and I force myself to do it.

Same was with The Sopranos btw.

P. S. Ricky Gervais is funniest comedian for me. I watched his Life's Too Short, After Life and I like it a lot. For me it's very funny and bravely. Never watched British The office, may be shouldn't, thanks.

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kobra 11 points 3 days ago

You're the first person I've ever seen that made it that far into The Wire and didn't like it. Are you American? If not, I think that maybe makes more sense. For Americans, it's just such a great representation of so many things that every city experiences. And the fact that you see the same story from so many different perspectives is just SO compelling. I think it should be watched/taught in high schools because of how many perspectives it gives on the plights of society in American cities.

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Corr 4 points 3 days ago

I think it takes a different approach mentally to enjoy it. Especially compared to anything modern. I'm working through it slowly myself and just finished season 3. I watch it with friends tho which maybe makes it easier to watch.

All that said, if it's not clicking after 10 hours, could be best to put it down. You can always try again later.

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Lemming6969 3 points 2 days ago

The wire's magic is that every character seems real, more like the show is a documentary rather than a TV show. And it carries all the way through, the quality never ends. You have to accept that you are watching a slow burn documentary, else you won't get it.

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Cherry 2 points 3 days ago

Agree, I actually think he is a fantastic actor and that’s missed in the role, don’t confuse the role with the actor and the tone of UK black comedy. Yes he roasts but it’s in a highlight kind of way and tends to be pointed at mocking privilege and arrogance. I’d suggest trying his other stuff like afterlife.

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pumpupthejam 2 points 3 days ago path: 0 24346496 24348622 24350743, hotness: undefined, score: 2, children: 0
Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In 2 points 2 days ago

Only When I got to season 3 did I understand why people rave about it. Each season is like an onion layer.

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EndlessNightmare 1 point 2 days ago

If the actual premise of the show isn't interesting, then it may not matter how quality it is.

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CultLeader4Hire 3 points 2 days ago

Hmm. I don’t know how I would feel if a person told me they found the premise of The Wire uninteresting… it’s a deep look at poverty, political corruption, black American life in inner city Baltimore, commentary on police and our justice system etc etc etc… there’s a lot to chew on, unless you came from the same background as the characters idk how a person could find the premise boring intellectually, and even then I’d still be surprised. The pacing however… yeah season one is slow

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EndlessNightmare 2 points 2 days ago

While I personally liked the show, it is heavy. Not everyone likes watching shows about serious topics.

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tal 14 points 3 days ago

The Game of Thrones TV series.

I really enjoyed the George R. R. Martin novels that they were based on, but the TV series just didn't do it for me.

I did enjoy the Lord of the Rings movies, so I know that it's possible to do film adaptations of fantasy novels that do click with me.

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Summzashi 3 points 3 days ago

I feel like most people that read ASOIAF beforehand are disappointed with how it turned out. The first season is practically a perfect adaptation of the first book, except Tyrion now spends his time having sex with whores and getting drunk instead of spending his nights in the library reading as much as he can.

And that was the beginning of it going to shit

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FenrirIII 2 points 2 days ago

Boobies equal ratings!

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harmbugler 2 points 2 days ago

I thought all four seasons were pretty good, though they lean on discovering the plot and lose a lot of rewatchability for it.

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elephantium 2 points a day ago

Heh, too bad they never continued the series past there :P

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elephantium 1 point a day ago

I was pretty happy with the first couple of seasons, but I didn't keep up with an HBO subscription to keep watching. A friend had some watching parties for the last season, and just ... ugh. Total waste of time.

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kinther 14 points 2 days ago

All new Star Wars movies and tv shows

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Earthman_Jim 9 points 2 days ago

Disney somehow made me absolutely apathetic to Star Wars, an IP that as a kid I used to go to sleep daydreaming about while listening to the soundtracks. The whole thing just feels stupid af now, and it's not just because I got older. It used to feel grounded in something, and now it feels unhinged.

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ikidd 3 points 2 days ago

Blame Kathleen Kennedy. She took a huge dump all over that and then smeared it around.

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Earthman_Jim 2 points 2 days ago

She did a fucking awful job. Had no idea what she was playing with or how to play with it.

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ikidd 1 point 2 days ago

I'm inclined to think she hated Spielberg and the franchise after working with him for years, and decided to destroy his legacy.

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shamrt 5 points 2 days ago

Andor notwithstanding

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MuttMutt 14 points 2 days ago

Friends...

I would rather watch women's tennis or a fishing show. I don't fish, I don't play tennis.

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itsjustachairmary 13 points 2 days ago

I have seen so much praise for Kingdom of Heaven and all I did was laugh or yell at it, usually both. It's so bad. So, so bad.

I'm sorry, you're telling me they built siege towers in the middle of the desert. Where did they get the wood??? And there's like 12 of them? And you aimed a Ballista and that took down every single one of them in one swoop? ALSO YOU ARE A SMITH APPRENTICE BUT YOU KNOW SIEGE TACTICS? AND YOU KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT DESERT IRRIGATION WHEN YOU ARE FROM FUCKING ENGLAND? AND

I'm yelling again

And that's not to mention how deeply historically inaccurate it is at moments, like even besides all the general Hollywood of it all. Like sure they get some moments right but generally, holy shit it's bad lol

Though I will say watching Will Turner learn sword fighting from Qui-Gon only to be interrupted by Jaime Lannister was pretty funny

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Voroxpete 6 points 2 days ago

I've seen it noted by better critics than me that when people criticize movies by fixating on hyper-specific inaccuracies or contradictions (the Cinema Sins method) they're usually expressing the fact that there were deeper underlying flaws in the movie itself that meant it failed to give them a reason to overlook those hyper-specific complaints.

After all, if the things you've listed here were reason enough to hate a film, on their own, you're basically just saying that you shouldn't watch movies. If you know enough about where and when a movie is set, you're guaranteed to be able to find those kinds of inaccuracies in any movie you watch, with very few exceptions.

The real problem here, I suspect, is that Kingdom of Heaven, as released is a bad movie. The director's cut, on the other hand, is incredible. Ridley envisioned this as a sprawling Lawrence of Arabia style historical epic, and that's the film he made. That film was then butchered to fit what the studio thought would make a good theatrical release.

The director's cut will not, to the best of my recollection, solve any of your specific complaints, but it is a far, far better movie.

Of course, it is possible that the version you saw was the director's cut, in which case I'm very sorry, movies set in any version of the real world just might not be for you. Or you're just not really a fan of historical epics or something. I dunno, you do you.

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itsjustachairmary 3 points 2 days ago

I watched the Director's cut. It is a ridiculous movie lol

Sorry but the Hollywoodisms and bad history aside, it is also just orientalist as all hell and I will hold the movie's pretense of being a historical movie against it when it is so deeply revisionist

A movie I did really enjoy was Waterloo for example. There are plenty of movies where I can forgive some artistic license. Hell, I like Chernobyl even though yes, that is also revisionist, but I understand the choices that were made. For Kingdom of Heaven though, it's clear Ridley Scott did what he is known for: putting a hatchet to real stories and chopping them down until there's nothing left.

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Voroxpete 5 points 2 days ago

See, those are all really interesting and meaningful criticisms, and for the life of me I cannot understand why you didn't lead with that instead of trying to nitpick how they got access to wood in a region known as the fertile crescent :-P

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itsjustachairmary 3 points 2 days ago

I'm a pedant! I'll admit it!

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mech 13 points 3 days ago

Star Trek in general.
TNG was OK when it was on TV, and everything else on TV sucked more.
The fourth movie was actually funny and enjoyable.
But I don't get the appeal that sparked such a huge fandom.

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Postmortal_Pop 10 points 3 days ago

My mother is a huge star trek fan from the era where it was biggest. The thing that really did it for her was that it's one of the few good outcomes in the future. They're out on space exploring for altruism and the novelty of it, not colonialism, not for the destruction of earth's enemies, not to find a home became we destroyed ours, almost every other space media uses it as a for-warning of the outcome of the poor choice we currently make. Star trek is the future we want. No money because all needs are met. Alien contact because they believe we have potential to be equals, stuff like that.

The shows actually do a terrible job conveying this and a worse job using the tools at hand, but I honestly don't know any other media with such a hopefully fiew.

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dreksob 10 points 2 days ago

So.

Star Trek was genuinely groundbreaking when it aired. First was that basically no other sci-fi story had a hopeful vision of the future, so it was instantly different. Star trek was a meritocracy, it was post-scarcity, characters where hailed for being competent moral people, instead of morally bankrupt nepo-babies.

Second was that the show treated people like adults, a lot of the storytelling involved significant moral conundrums, and included scenarios with no easy answer.

Finally, the shows sci-fi setting let it tackle ideas that otherwise would be untouchable. Racism was shown to be absurd not by having black people and white people, but you could see a whole planet where people half-white and half-black would oppress (and be horribly racist) towards exactly the same people, but who had the white part on the other side of the body.

Finally, the casting for the show, and the characterization was amazing. Kirk is (imo) a boring character, but the dynamic of Kirk Spock and Scotty made for genuinely interesting interpersonal dialog.

Granted, its been done again and again, and done better (Notably, TNG is better in almost every way IMO), and so the formula got stale, and you cant help but compare Star Trek to the copies, several of whom inevitably did certain parts better.

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chunes 3 points 3 days ago

It's really easy to rank the Star Trek TV series for me. The earlier it came out, the better.

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EndlessNightmare 2 points 2 days ago

I liked STNG at the time, but I tried watching them again recently and it didn't age well. I'm not even talking about the special effects or anything, I don't really care. I've gotten used to shorter serialized seasons rather than long episodic seasons.

For clarification: serialized = plot continues through episodes - vs- episodic = each episode is a self-contained plot

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maxalmonte14 13 points 2 days ago

The US version of The Office, LOL.

Watched 8 episodes and would rather watch paint dry for the rest of my life than watching the rest of the series.

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Rawrosaurus 12 points 2 days ago

Breaking Bad for me. I just can't stand it and find the characters and the situations just unpleasant and undesireable to watch.

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lightnsfw 12 points 2 days ago

Mad Men. Everyone on that show is a fucking scumbag and not in a funny or interesting way.

Also Thor Ragnarok. I hate it for the reasons people say they hate the next one but it was the same people that said they liked Ragnarok so Idk what the fuck is going on there. I'm not watching the second one to find out.

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RBWells 12 points 2 days ago

Life of Pi. My kids warned me not to read it, they had to for school. I read fast, it was a slim volume, I thought why not, it will be quick. It was quick but I want that time back. I don't get what anyone likes about it, it's unlikeable.

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elephantium 3 points a day ago

It was a book before a movie?

quick web search

Huh. TIL.

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DrSteveBrule 1 point a day ago

I was pretty young when that book got popular, maybe around 12. My mom really liked it and kept suggesting I read it but I just couldn't take it seriously when two characters had the same exact name. I don't understand if that was supposed to be a joke or just some quirky decision, but it immediately made me lose interest. I don't think I made it past chapter 2

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CanadaPlus 12 points 2 days ago

Uncut Gems, for pretty much the same reason a lot of people liked it.

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WanderWisley 11 points a day ago

Paying a subscription to watch sports.

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bizarroland 10 points 3 days ago

Macgruber. I've tried two different times to watch it once while sober and once while high, and it just, I fucking hate it. I don't know what it is. Everything about it is terrible. I cannot complete the movie.

That and the Broadway edition of Cats. 15 or 20 seconds in and for some reason watching the actors dance around in cat costumes trigger some sort of primordial anger, rage, terror, something in me.

I was screaming at my family to stop it, I had to physically leave the room.

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D 9 points 3 days ago

Cats.

primordial anger, rage, terror

This is a typical response.

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Sergio 3 points 3 days ago

So you say it brought forth deep emotions. It moved you.

(never seen it, idk...)

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D 3 points 3 days ago

Oh yes, it stirred something deep inside. This show could be used as an ipecac substitute. I may be particularly sensitive as I was on crew for this production many moons ago.

Just stab yourself in the ear with a rusty knife, you'll get the gist of it.

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bizarroland 1 point 2 days ago

An additional beneficial side effect of watching the first, I don't know, two minutes of cats if you can make it that far is it will confirm for you forever whether or not you are a furry.

I am solidly in the not a fucking furry crowd.

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shittydwarf 4 points 3 days ago

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wide_eyed_stupid 10 points 2 days ago

Seinfeld.

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DrSteveBrule 4 points a day ago

I think the show is ok, but could've been good with anyone else as Seinfeld. Jerry is the worst part of the show, especially the stand up bits at the beginning and end. I don't understand how he was ever popular

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MonkeMischief 3 points a day ago

"wHaT's ThE dEaAaAaAaAAL WiTh _____??"

...I don't understand how that guy apparently holds a ridiculous amount of power in the entertainment industry lol.

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wewbull 3 points 17 hours ago

"Getting coffee with people in cars" or whatever it's called really revealed how nasty and self obsessed Jerry Seinfeld is to me. Up to that point he was passably funny to me or, at least, the show was. Looking back it was really Larry David, and the other cast that carried it all.

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SirSamuel 10 points 3 days ago

The Office
Napoleon Dynamite
Grease
Reservoir Dogs
Big Bang Theory (or any popular laugh-track sitcom post 2000)
(Nevermind, you said highly extolled, not just popular)
Chicago, Rent, and Cats
Harry Potter (even before JKR went full terf, probably just a generational thing, honestly)
Taylor Swift (again, nothing personal, just not my jam)
Sideways, Marriage Story, Whiplash (intense interpersonal drama, particularly dealing with infidelity or power disparity)

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tal 9 points 3 days ago

Not quite what you're asking for, because this one I can at least stand to watch, but Futurama was one of the biggest "I'm not impressed but know people who adore it" pieces of media for me.

I've liked past Matt Groening stuff. I liked Life is Hell. I liked (earlier) The Simpsons stuff.

I've sat next to people who crack up while watching Futurama.

But I don't think I've ever chuckled at the humor in Futurama. It throws out a series of jokes that just don't make me chuckle at all.

That being said, I haven't watched it for some time, so I haven't seen the newer stuff.

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hakase 7 points 3 days ago

That's funny, I'm the exact opposite. I grew up never getting why people liked the Simpsons, but Futurama is one of the funniest, most entertaining, and most moving shows I've seen.

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thesohoriots 5 points 3 days ago

It’s very much a Gen-X nostalgia bucket.

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tal 2 points 3 days ago

I do agree that it's full of cultural references and that lacking it would probably detract from it, but even so, I just don't see how someone having that context makes the jokes funny.

One example I had in mind was when I brought up the fact that I just didn't really find the jokes funny even through some people really did laugh. At the time, the show was showing some robots trying to pack boxes and they kept failing, because when they put them together, they'd eliminate them, in an allusion to Tetris. That is, indeed, a Gen-X reference. The guy I was watching it with was chortling. I remember asking him about it and him saying "it's hilarious!"

I mean...I get the reference there. I've owned a couple versions of Tetris. I played it back when the game was young. But...even having the cultural context, it's just...there's none of the stuff that make something funny for me there. I just look at it and say "yeah, they're alluding to Tetris." Maybe it's that there's not enough buildup or something.

I remember some episode when a bunch of hippies are protesting outside Professor Farnsworth's house. The Professor tells them to get off his property. A hippie says "You can't own property, man!" The Professor says, "You can't, because you're a penniless hippie!" I mean...I'm not offended by it poking fun at communism, but...I see the political conflict there, but it just doesn't make me laugh. Or the Dr. Zoidberg humor, which in significant part is him acting inappropriately...I dunno. It's hard to figure out precisely what makes humor work for people --- if we did, we could probably produce it a lot more mechanically --- but whatever the writing team did just...consistently didn't tickle it for me.

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maltasoron 2 points 3 days ago

Same. I used to watch Futurama a lot and I usually found it amusing, but I never made any audible noises of enjoyment.

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Sergio 1 point 3 days ago

There was a fantasy series that was kind of the same. It never got better than "mildly amusing" for me.

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Zexks -1 points 3 days ago

If you didnt laugh at futurama you didnt laugh at the simpsons. Even the early ones. You may have been a child that was giggling at the colors or that a catoon was on at night but you werent listenting to the punch lines at the time.

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EtnaAtsume 9 points 3 days ago

Star Wars, Marvel movies, basically film in general. Goes for TV shows too.

It wasn't until my mid-twenties that I concluded that video is just not an entertainment medium that works for me. I tried really, really hard to like it, and I gave all of the really popular films or TV shows or even YouTube videos a fair shot.

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JerkyChew 8 points a day ago

Your mom's OnlyFans page.

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KittyCat 8 points 2 days ago

Forrest Gump, in my opinion one of the worst movies I've ever seen.

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YeahIgotskills2 8 points 3 days ago

Hard, hard disagree. Not a fan of his recent stand-up, but The Office was an absolute breath of fresh air at the time and was so hilarious and relatable to my own work experience.

I remember my boss complaining that it wasn't funny and he didn't know what the fuss was about, which made absolute sense to me as it was basically taking the piss out of people like him and highlighting how absurd petty and insecure managers can be.

The characters are timeless, and I think the Christmas special was among the best pieces of British TV ever.

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mrmorganiser 7 points 2 days ago

The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho

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InvisibleShoe 6 points 2 days ago

Claymation. It is unnerving and creepy. Gives me the same vibes as nails on a chalkboard or HR Pufnstuf.

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SnarkoPolo 6 points 3 days ago

An Officer And A Gentleman. Absolute sexist garbage.

The Narnia books. Silly, thinly disguised evangelical propaganda.

Star Trek: Enterprise. I just never got into that one.

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CanadaPlus 4 points 2 days ago

Doesn't everyone hate Enterprise?

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Damage 1 point 2 days ago

No, not everyone.... I mean, some people like Discovery...

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setsneedtofeed 1 point 2 days ago

I like ENT. It is far from perfect, but it gets ragged disproportionally.

Season 1 & 2 do have some bombs ('Dear Doctor') but even in these less loved seasons, there are good episodes. 'The Andorian Incident' is a great episode right in the first season that not only introduces Jeffery Combs as Shran, but becomes a touchpoint for future episodes. There's a number of other good to ok episodes, I'd say at least in the same amount as TNG's first seasons.

Season 3 is divisive, but I liked seeing the proto-enlightened humanity backsliding a little bit into the militarized ways. This was an examination of that, done without getting too bogged down. I enjoyed the increasing knowledge of Xindi cultures being a factor in unraveling the situation.

Basically everyone who watched it loves season 4.

Was the show perfect? No. The temporal Cold War running plot was a time wasting slog. Was the finale revealing the whole thing as a TNG holodeck program stupid? Yes. But did the show have a unique take on human-Vulcan relations? Yeah. Did it on the whole keep that optimistic spirit of Trek? Yeah. Was it a long road getting from there to here? Yes, it's been a long time, but my time is finally near.

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gigastasio 6 points 3 days ago

VH1

Also known as “rich trashy people being rich and trashy.” Who the actual fuck watches that garbage?

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Texas_Hangover 17 points 3 days ago

They used to play music videos on that channel you know.

Fuck I'm old.

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HobbitFoot 8 points 2 days ago

Including Pop Up Video.

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nickiwest 7 points 2 days ago

Pop Up Video was the best.

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mrmorganiser 4 points 2 days ago

TIL: VH1 is no longer a music channel :/

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tal 1 point 2 days ago

I mean, celebrity news is a thing. Not something I'm into, but there's been demand for a long time.

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hakase 6 points 3 days ago

The Big Lebowski. It's not funny or entertaining in the slightest, and is almost physically painful to watch. I am legitimately confused as to how people can actually enjoy this movie.

Inb4 the "well, that's just, like, your opinion, man" comments.

Edit: also, The Office only became watchable after Michael left. Possibly the worst character in all of fiction.

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snooggums 9 points 3 days ago

well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man

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rainwall 5 points 3 days ago

I hated it the first time I watched it because it felt trite and asinine. I watched it again years later in a different headspace without the same expectations and it clicked for me.

Its a movie that mixes the deeply mundane with the deeply absurd on purpose, and it does it very well. It has a main charector that is boring as hell as a person but also an iconoclast that is immune from consequence, which the movie just amps up and up and up into mania, all while "the dude" just drifts through it. That conflict is where most of the humor lies, alongside just stunning acting from basically everyone in the movie.

The movie just moves from iconic moment to iconic moment between these insane people doing insane things in sometimes day to day ways, mixing up what normalicy is as a whole. Is it paying for half and half at a grocery store with a check you know will bounce in your bathrobe? Is it offering to blow strangers by your pool for 10k? Is it strapping yourself to a harness and screeching at a painting you fling yourself at to add a new layer of paint? Yes, it's all normal and its all absurd, just like the rest of the human experience.

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brewbart 4 points 3 days ago

Personally, I think the plot of just wanting to achieve a task as little as getting your carpet reimbursed and then running into all these absurd situations as a 'normal' dude makes it so appealing. Also the meme-ability helps. If the former is not your thing, we'll then this movie is not for you then (which is totally okay!)

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crapwittyname 5 points 3 days ago

Completely agree with your take on the UK office. Worse, it started a trend in trying to make the audience cringe instead of laugh.

And I've always been at least mildly irritated by Gervais, the cunt. Bothered me how everything he did got critical acclaim and I'd have to have the same conversation over and over again about how he just sets my teeth on edge, and no I haven't watched, and no, I don't want to give this one a try, and no, please stop trying to persuade me to like anything with that shit in it, it's not going to happen, yes I guess I probably am the weird one for not liking him...etc.

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Hazor 5 points a day ago

Dr. Seuss. I really don't know why, but that stuff is creepy and disturbing in a way that almost nothing else is. All of it. The art, the writing, the themes. I literally just can't even.

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akvapsi29 5 points 3 days ago
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one_step_behind 1 point 3 days ago

We have truly become the society of the spectacle.

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thesohoriots 1 point 3 days ago

DFW’s nonfiction is his superior work. But who cares because Infinite Jest, bro!

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banause 4 points 2 days ago

Bergdoktor

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thechosen2nd 4 points 3 days ago

US The Office and Friends.

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Treczoks 4 points a day ago

Last Christmas. Whenever it pops up in the radio, I switch to the next station.

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boaratio 4 points 3 days ago

I have friends who are into jam bands and I'm glad they go to live music shows. However, I'm the type of person that likes movies that are a tight 90 minutes long, and one of my favorite songs of all time is less than 2 minutes long. My time is worth money, treat it like it is. I don't need to listen to a 15 minute guitar solo.

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schipelblorp 5 points 3 days ago

I'm lead tou nderstand that drugs are often involved in developing appreciation for jam bands.

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boaratio 2 points 2 days ago

Are you currently on drugs? No disrespect if you are, but it took me awhile to unpack that sentence.

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schipelblorp 7 points 2 days ago

“I'm going to need you to write a concise sentence before I let you go.”--Cop about to perform the Strunk & White sobriety test

Sadly, no, stone cold sober.

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marzhall 2 points 2 days ago

the Strunk & White sobriety test

got me good

is there an AP style variant?

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bluesheep 1 point 2 days ago

Went to a open session one time in a more jazz-oriented club. Wanted to play some vulfpeck with them if they knew it, but they didn't. All they did was pick 4 random chords from a jar, and jam to that for 10 minutes at a time. Sure, fucking around can be fun and they were great musicians to be honest, but as someone in the crowd at some point it was just boring. Jamming is fun but mostly for the musicians themselves, not for the crowd

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thesohoriots 4 points 3 days ago

Letterkenny. Absolutely zero laughs out of me and something about it just induces a headache. I wanted to like it, gave the entire first season a watch, but my god it was painful.

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EndlessNightmare 1 point 2 days ago

Letterkenny isn't great, but I really do like Shoresy. The show format works a lot better I think.

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stretch2m 1 point 2 days ago

Michelle Mylett is in it, though, so it's got that going for it.

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tigermountain 4 points 2 days ago

Oh man. I really love the British version of the office and Gervais. It's so much better than the american one. He's done some shows too. After Life and Extras are great.

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reksas 4 points 2 days ago

postal games.

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ttayh 2 points 3 days ago

Project hail marry. Are you for real this unfunny af mediocre movie is well liked? I was incredibly close to walking out of the movie, thankfuly it got less awful after the ships dock

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hakase 3 points 3 days ago

I was also really disappointed by the adaptation, especially compared to the Martian. I'll see if I can find the comment where I talked about why and I'll come back and copy paste it.

Edit: here it is:

NOTE: I've tried to keep this as spoiler-free as possible, but even so you may not want to read this until after you've seen the movie.

The movie was definitely good, but fell pretty short compared to the book, and especially when compared to The Martian's adaptation.

For one, the movie felt way too much like a comedy, almost like a Taika Waititi Marvel adaptation of the much more serious (but still very funny) book, which felt tonally weird and didn't really land for me. Even the weight of the reveal of ::: spoiler spoiler Grace's refusal to go :::

was completely undercut by a tonally inappropriate, almost zany ::: spoiler spoiler chase sequence :::

that robbed the scene of most of the pathos it should have had. Reminds me of this excellent video about how modern blockbusters seem allergic to sincerity to their detriment.

We also didn't like how much more useless the movie made Grace feel. The book went out of its way early to show that he was a resourceful, intelligent, excellent problem solver, and while there was certainly a bit of this in the movie, it still felt like Grace was pretty much useless, undeserving dead weight, and like he either completely lucked his way through or had to rely only on

spoiler

Rocky,

while in the book their partnership felt much more collaborative. All of this combined to make the reveal I mentioned earlier feel much darker/more depressing, because you get the impression that no, he really didn't deserve to be there, and then what he says at the end of the movie completely falls flat, because it felt like almost none of it was the result of his choices or character. Feels like it completely undercuts one of the main themes of the book, which is that he did deserve to be there, and that he was the right person for the job, even if he didn't think he was.

We also thought the movie omitted some of the book's best lines. "You can hear light?" is an all-time great line that still gives me shivers, and it definitely should have been in the movie.


Things we liked: 1. The movie was visually stunning - everything it was going for in the looks department it completely nailed. 2. One of the most important characters in the movie was very well done, in both design and characterization. Maybe a bit too manic, but that's a relatively small quibble in the larger context of just how well they did with him.

So yeah, very much an enjoyable two hours, but not as good as it should have been due to a few flawed adaptation decisions.

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Aralakh 2 points 3 days ago

Ugh yes the adaptation made me feel meh, as it missed so many key beats that adds weight to learning amount Grace's journey. Everything else you said was spot on too.

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elephantium 1 point a day ago

I skipped over most of your comment after the first line; I have the book requested from the library (#400 in line! Fortunately, they have about 150 copies). I've enjoyed Weir's other books (and the Matt Damon in peril adaptation).

Should I take this as a cautionary tale? Is Project Hail Mary a departure from "the good stuff" in Weir's previous work, or is it more like a case of a poor film adaptation in your book?

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hakase 1 point a day ago

The book is excellent - about as good as his previous work in my opinion. It's definitely a case of the adaptation falling short, so look forward to and enjoy the read!

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elephantium 2 points a day ago

Thanks! I'm looking forward to it.

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chunes 2 points 3 days ago

Such an interesting premise ruined by fourth-grade humor. I don't mind having some dry humor moments, but it was the entire freakin' thing.

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LodeMike 1 point a day ago

The book was MUCH better. I think it was made assuming most its audience read the book.

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DevastatedBungHole 1 point 3 days ago

I would never put the book as a comedy. Was the movie supposed to be funny?

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ttayh 8 points 3 days ago

It certainly tried, with trash tier "school of Marvel" jokes and timing

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CultLeader4Hire 2 points 2 days ago

The movie isn’t funny, having some light hearted scenes doesn’t make a movie a comedy.

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joshcodes 2 points 18 hours ago

Overwatch the video game. TF2 felt better in every way - no I didn't play the original team fortress. I never felt good playing the overwatch, never cared about all the backstory considering it had no standing on the game whatsoever - I'm sure they'll add a campaign some day though. The mechanics felt so floaty and slidy, and I never felt like my hits registered at all. The community sucked even more because everyone was "one game off going pro" because they got a cool kill 10 rounds ago. Rocket league was less toxic and that's saying something. Oh and sooo repetitive. I hear the irony of comparing it to rocket league then saying that, don't worry.

I'll take the low blow and say Blizzard can get fucked as a company too, I'd be happy if they went bankrupt tomorrow. They're like the worst of the worst in the video game industry.

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czer0_ 2 points a day ago

The Netflix adaptation of Altered Carbon or "How a good read was turned into an absolute boring pile of dog shit"

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Sektor 0 points a day ago

Director Dennis Villeneuve. I don't like emo and the guy is playing only that card.

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remon 0 points a day ago

All the GTA games after GTA 2 were shit. 3D ruined it.

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Sektor 0 points a day ago

Director Dennis Villeneuve. I don't like emo and the guy is playing only that card.

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incentive -1 points a day ago

Grand Theft Auto before-and-after San Andreas

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kurmudgeon -2 points 3 days ago
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hakase 11 points 3 days ago

Username checks out.

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kurmudgeon 3 points 3 days ago
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finalarbiter 10 points 3 days ago

And I don't call it rap music because it's not music.

Disliking something doesn't inherently exclude it from a category. Rap is a genre of music, what else could it possibly be? So are country and metal, even if many dislike them.

Hip hop comes from the projects in the Bronx neighborhood of New York City, where it coalesced from several different art forms developed in defiance of rampant poverty and oppression.

All these people do is write down a bunch of words and speak them.

Those people couldn't afford 'real' instruments and didn't have the musical education to take advantage of them anyway. Turntables became instruments in their hands because there were no other options. Rap itself draws a pretty straight line from poetry- infuse some more emotion and performance, and you get rap.

As the movement grew in popularity, the hip hop and rap genres were effectively stolen around the turn of the century by producers to sell to white people instead of allowing it to thrive in the black communities that created them in the first place. The lyrics changed from being about surviving and thriving in spite of The Man to focusing on exploiting women and doing drugs, in ignorance of the short but rich history behind the genre.

(I'm lounging in bed writing this on my phone, so no direct sources sorry. We talked about this in one of my high school classes eons ago, I might be able to dig up those files later if there's interest.)

In that sense, it's not all that different from the newer corporatized country that you spoke about, or even rock and roll. If you're going to mad about rap lyrics, be mad at the cultural theft and exploitation rather than discounting it wholesale just because you dislike the sound.

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tal 4 points 3 days ago

I don't think I'd call rap not music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music

Music is the arrangement of sound to create some combination of form, harmony, melody, rhythm, or otherwise expressive content.

I think that it meets that bar.

I don't like it myself, either, but there are plenty of genres of music that I don't like.

When I see people riding down the road bumping modern rap music, I just shake my head, especially 30-year-old or 40-year-old white women.

Like, because it originated from black artists? I mean...I've heard people make similar statements before, but jazz also originated with black artists, and I haven't heard people object to white people listening to jazz.

Maybe they did and it was just before my time. I remember a World War II Danish Nazi poster complaining about the jitterbug, which also originated with black artists, but that seemed to take issue with the music rather than who was listening to it.

searches

Hmm. Though it sounds like there was some friction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitterbug

Swing dancing originated in the African-American communities of New York City in the early 20th century.[5] Many nightclubs had a whites-only or blacks-only policy due to racial segregation, however the Savoy Ballroom in Harlem had a no-discrimination policy which allowed whites and blacks to dance together[6] and it was there that the Lindy Hop dance flourished,[7] started by dancers such as George Snowden and Frank Manning. The term jitterbug was originally a ridicule used by black patrons to describe whites who started to dance the Lindy Hop, because they were dancing faster and jumpier than was intended, like "jittering bugs",[8] although it quickly lost its negative connotation as the more-erratic version caught on.

EDIT: The WW2 poster referencing jitterbug that I was remembering:

https://lemmy.today/...)

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thisbenzingring 2 points 3 days ago

I think it's important to parse country music. There's Nashville country music and then there's county music. Actual country music is great. Nashville country music is not.

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gigastasio 2 points 3 days ago

Would you be so kind as to share a few of those artists?

See, I caught my ex listening to country yesterday, and I know she’s just doing it because her new gf is into country, and it sounded like your aforementioned Nashville schlock. I figure if she’s going to force herself to listen to country to impress her gf, least I can do is suggest some real country artists.

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thisbenzingring 4 points 3 days ago

Johnny Cash for sure but a modern example is Sera Cahoone. Give her Couch Song a listen.

Another great is Lucero. Fucking amazing country rock! The album Nobody's Darlings is one of my absolute favorites.

Neko Case is always amazing.

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borari 2 points 16 hours ago

Ben Nichols, the lead singer of Lucero, has an album based on Blood Meridian call The Last Pale Light in the West that is absolutely phenomenal as well.

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noxypaws 1 point a day ago

And I don't call it rap music because it's not music.

shit only racists say

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marzhall -2 points 2 days ago

Dune.

It's Y/A trash that had the benefit of coming out a long time ago and so being ensconced in scifi culture.

I'll give that it is interesting for its world, its one unique aspect, but the actual plot - chosen-one special boy's dad dies and so he immediately becomes the married leader of a group of locals and stages an insurrection against the antagonist in revenge - is so worn out you can barely turn the pages.

But I'm sure back when it came out, all the adolescents were drooling over the piles of teenage wish fulfillment.

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CultLeader4Hire 6 points 2 days ago

Y/A wasn’t even a genre when it was written

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lyrial 4 points 2 days ago

And there is so much to that series of books in terms of complex topics that are dealt with in subtle ways that I don't understand how they think it is Y/A.

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marzhall -1 points 2 days ago

To be clear, I only read the first book because I was not interested in reading more (read: actively annoyed that nothing interesting happened).

As for YA, that's easy. It falls over the tropes (which, to be fair, it could have been early/first in). This post had been a favorite of mine for years, the "Protagonist" section is 2 for 3. Where it does somewhat lean out of the genre is its world, which is not just thinly-veiled school or the like.

As for what we actually see in the first book, though, we get an often-told YA story that happens to occur in an exceptionally well-thought out world.

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borari 1 point 16 hours ago

Frank Herbert wrote the second book because, just like you, the entire point of the first book flew over a lot of people heads.

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marzhall 0 points 2 days ago

Oh, I have no doubt there's some Seinfeld is Unfunny effect going on.

But unfortunately I read it in ~2020 after three decades of reading books, so every plot beat was played out for me beforehand by decades of imitators who iterated on it. Unfortunately, being first doesn't make me care about your plot.

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elephantium 2 points a day ago

This makes me think about The Belgariad. It seemed like a tired rehash of old tropes at first...but those tropes weren't so tired when the author wrote it. I enjoyed it quite a bit more with that in mind.

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marzhall 1 point a day ago

Huh, that's a new one to me. Given its age I could definitely see it being full of tools used later by other authors. Yeah, the Seinfeld is Unfunny effect is no joke.

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setsneedtofeed 2 points 2 days ago

Dune has an examination of the chosen one trope. You can pull a lot of meaning out it, but it certainly does more than unabashedly say it's a good thing.

Regarding the Fremen, idea of a chosen one in-universe only exists because it was seeded as a self-serving belief by a foreign religious group messing with their culture. It isn't a "real" prophecy, but one seeded so that it can be potentially "fulfilled" by someone in the know in-universe. The fremen follow Paul into war with fanatic zeal. This examines how damaging religious influence is.

The Kwisatz Haderach angle is another "prophecy" except it is being actively worked to be fulfilled in-universe using non-mystical means. Paul realizes how terrible it is to be this type of chosen one and rather than fulfill it he abandons it, and not in the cool "rebel taking down the system" way, but in the "overwhelmed by the weight of it", way. He becomes broken and all for nothing since his son just completes the path he was on anyway, and it leads to a lot of (nessesary?) evil at his command.

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SethranKada -3 points 2 days ago

Avatar the last airbender.

Literally the only thing interesting is the serial reincarnation of the Avatar, the disability representation in Toph, and that weird demigod of misfortune people call the cabbage merchant.

Literally everything else sucks. The graphics are meh, the lore is forgettable, the magic system is somehow both overly complicated and restrictive, the characters are cringy and uncomfortable, Aang's pacifism is infuriating, and the plot even more so.

Personally, the James Cameron movie is far superior. Not because of its characters or story. God no. But its worldbuilding is far superior. Eywa and the neural queues the Na'vi and the other local flora and fauna have has been a genuine inspiration to so many of my world building projects its crazy.

The visuals are crazy impressive too for the time period, and those floating mountains are just gorgeous.

Really, ATLA sucks in comparison, and I hate it when people slander the true Avatar just to push up their own cringy mess.

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Lumisal 11 points 2 days ago

Top tier Pocahontas troll bait mate 👌

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nylo 6 points 2 days ago

madmaxthatsbait.gif

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Zexks -5 points 3 days ago

I find it amusing that most of the commentors in here cant tell you why they dont like something they just simply chose to not like it and are carrying that forward. There are a few who recoil at cringe comedy but the majority of responses are unbacked opinions.

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tal 9 points 3 days ago

I think that it's reasonable to like or dislike something without them needing to analyze further for that opinion to be valid. I think it's fine for someone to say that they don't like the taste of, say, strawberry ice cream without being obligated to break it down further. I mean, people form opinions without trying to psychologically analyze themselves.

And I don't think that people generally "choose to not like something" either. People don't say to themselves anything like "I think I'll dislike the flavor of strawberry ice cream."

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EndlessNightmare 7 points 2 days ago

Opinions regarding preferences don't need to be backed by anything. I don't like the color puce but couldn't say "why"

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yermaw 4 points 3 days ago

I can not and will not explain precisely why eating dog shit is nasty, but the flies seem to love it.

Its nasty tho

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thisbenzingring 1 point 3 days ago

the majority of responses are unbacked opinions

I feel that is generally the type of thing on any option based social media thread

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