'It Is Done. Hail Satan:' City Immediately Regrets New Religious Liberty Law That Allows Prayer at City Council Meeting [404 Media]
3 days ago by cannedtuna to c/news
Iowa city council debates proper time in meeting agenda to "undo the curse that was just put on our city."
An Iowa man has kicked off controversy over religious freedom in the small town of Ottumwa, Iowa by opening a city council meeting with a prayer to Satan, which then kicked off a debate about the proper time in the meeting agenda to undo the “curse.”
He's going for that sweet Christ Air
Forget air fryers, let's talk about air friars.
separation of church and skate
sings
Now, Heaven would be a DJ spinning dub all night long
And Heaven would be just kicking back with Jesus packing my bong
And if you don't believe in Jesus, then Muhammad or Buddha, too
And while the world is warring, we just sit back and laugh at you, singing
If I die before I wake
At least in Heaven, I can skate
'Cause right now on Earth, I can't do jack
Without the man up on my back
I was actually referring to NOFX, but that’s a solid song too
You will literally hear dumb fuck xtians argue until they are blue in the face that what the Founders really meant to do was to merely allow you to choose among an array of xtian sects. Maybe if you are spicy, you'll be permitted to be Jewish, because well, Jesus was a Jew. And we will "tolerate" that.
Other xtians just seem to view "religious freedom" as "xtians get special privileges and they should be able to treat certain groups less-than if it suits them".
And man, they'll definitely get butthurt when you point out that the First pretty much requires that you have freedom FROM as well as freedom OF. And that "OF" means....anything, not just xtianity. I'll be a fucking pagan on Monday, fuck you very much because of that OF, and if I please, I'll be an atheist on Tuesday because of the FROM. Because that's real religious freedom.
That prayer is fire.
Dear dark father, let us stand now unbowed and unfettered by arcane doctrines born of fearful minds and darkened times. Let us embrace the Luciferan impulse to eat off the tree of knowledge and dissipate our blissful and comforting delusions of old.”
Let us demand that individuals be judged for their concrete actions, not for their fealty to arbitrary social norms and illusory categorizations,” he continued. “Let us reason our solutions with agnosticism in all things, holding fast only to that which is demonstrably true. Let us stand firm against any and all arbitrary authority that threatens the personal sovereignty of one or all. That which will not bend must break. And that which can be destroyed by truth should never be spared its demise.”“It is done. Hail Satan,”
What's ridiculous about it is, if any of the people who were offended actually sat down and analyzed the wording, the only thing they could reasonably object to is the "Hail Satan" at the end. Which illustrates the entire problem with Christian Nationalism. They don't care about the content, only the branding.
Jebus never lies and neither do old racist southern preachers.
Sure. I don't consider that a "reasonable" objection, though.
"They don’t care about the content, only the branding." - Which is also the problem with Trumpism.
Jesus freak here and I concur. This prayer is a 10/10 no notes.
This you?
Actually yes, kinda, lol. Not religious but definitely trying to live in a Christlike manner. Everything in that prayer is a call to the highest, godliest principles. If anyone who claims the name of Jesus has a problem with it, they're wolves in sheep's clothing. But I don't think I need to tell y'all that :3
At the Tuesday night council meeting, the audience stood up to recite the Pledge of Allegiance the moment Dalbey finished.
The dubiousness of unquestioning nationalism aside, the pledge of allegiance containing 'under god' also makes it a religious phrase.
But without idiotic, blind patriotic fervour, what will become of 'Murica?
Won't nobody think of the flags?!
They should do as Alcoholics Anonymous did. Change god for "higher power". Because, you know, people need a higher power nanny.
BTW: Alcoholics Anonymous has a direct surrender to God in 4 of it's 12 steps, and indirect mention in 2 more. And god is obviously a "Him"
AA was started by a pair of Christian revivalist Oxford Group (now known as Initiatives of Change) members. They believe that fear and selfishness are the root of all problems, and that the solution to living without fear and selfishness is to "surrender one's life over to God's plan".
Basically, they don't think people, in general, can govern themselves and require a sky daddy to keep them on track.
I appreciate the sentiment but what does Reagan have to do with the pledge? It was changed under Eisenhower.
Even if they removed 'under god' from the pledge of allegiance today (Republicans would probably filibuster any such attempt in the Senate), indoctrinating students at public schools with its daily recital has contributed to an unhealthy level of nationalism that leads to not only a view of American exceptionalism, but also the belief that any overt or covert attempt to replace the governance of foreign countries with institutions closer to that of the United States must inherently be good.
they added the Under God part during the Red Scare to show the world that the US wasn't a secular godless nation like the USSR at the time.
That's also when they started putting "In God we trust" on our money. Assholes.
Even as a kid growing up in the 90s, knowing separation and state and finding it odd as fuck we had "In God this and that" in various aspects of our lives. Even my developing,, super small brain could tell something didn't add up right. 🤨️
Depends on the city:
Mephistopheles is a pedicab driver.
Hail Satan.
Hail Stan
rAmen
🥈
🥉
Rick Bick is a party pooper. Don't be a dick, Rick Bick.
The prayer is a common one used by the Satanic Temple of Iowa. “Let us demand that individuals be judged for their concrete actions, not for their fealty to arbitrary social norms and illusory categorizations,” he continued. “Let us reason our solutions with agnosticism in all things, holding fast only to that which is demonstrably true. Let us stand firm against any and all arbitrary authority that threatens the personal sovereignty of one or all. That which will not bend must break. And that which can be destroyed by truth should never be spared its demise.”“It is done. Hail Satan,” he finished.
Another citizen, a pastor named Rick Bick, rushed to the podium. “Let’s just reverse that curse that was just put on our city,” he said. “That ending with hail Satan and hail dark god. That’s not welcome here.”
Let us demand that individuals be judged for their concrete actions, not for their fealty to arbitrary social norms and illusory categorizations.
Let us reason our solutions with agnosticism in all things, holding fast only to that which is demonstrably true.
Let us stand firm against any and all arbitrary authority that threatens the personal sovereignty of one or all.
That which will not bend must break. And that which can be destroyed by truth should never be spared its demise.
Think about it. To me that sounds like a literal slice of heaven, especially that last line.
But this guy's convinced it's a curse. Either that or the multi-syllabic big words made him scared.
Sounds like Rick Bick is thick as a fucking brick.
Honestly it’s very hard to argue with anything in that prayer, it’s pretty reasonable and clear.
Only thing I don’t like is the call for judging. I do think people can change, they should be judged on their actions and intents, but we should reasonably allow for second chances and improvement.
One thing Christianity is good at is taking people who feel irredeemable and reassuring them that they’re still people with a chance in life. As long as people see their wrongs and try to improve, I think we can and should forgive some things.
I hate the people who continue being shit then say God forgives them or Jesus died for them so it’s all washed out. That’s the same energy as throwing stuff on the ground because there’s a janitor. You are responsible for your actions and their impacts, just asking for forgiveness shouldn’t grant it without sincerely understanding and trying to improve.
Imagine being a grown-ass man listening to this, taking the stage and unironically saying “that was a curse put on our city, and most of you know that”. They actually fucking believe that some guy saying “Hail Satan” has the power to “curse” a city.
Another citizen, a pastor named Rick Bick, rushed to the podium. “Let’s just reverse that curse that was just put on our city,” he said. “That ending with hail Satan and hail dark god. That’s not welcome here.”
“Mayor, that should be done at the end,” city councilor Cara Galloway said.
“It needs to be done now, OK.” Rick said. “I appreciate what Ms. Galloway is saying but that was a curse put on our city when he said ‘Hail Satan’ and the dark god and most of you know that. And we need to just stop and reverse it.”
“So what I’m gonna do now…I’m just gonna invite us into a 30 second time of prayer — time of silence.”
“No,” Galloway said. “We are at the consent agenda. I’m sorry, but it’s time to move forward. The invocation happened.”
“As mayor of this city…I’m going to ask right now that we do a moment of silence to reflect on whatever it is we need to reflect on at this time. And then we will move to the consent agenda,” mayor Benjamin Foote said.
I should start giving incantations, that reaction is gold.
And this is exactly why the Satanic Temple exists.
Hail Satan
I used to be a preacher, and am still a Christian. I also have given money to the Satanic Temple because the work they do is important.
Separation of church and state is good for the government, the churches, and society at large.
You're chill, man. Keep on keepin' on.
you can tell the real christian churches because they are active in protesting in the current time.
I just bought a hoodie and mug from them. I been on the email list for years. Solid trolling on their part.
Too tight of a schedule to cast that counter spell.
Plus an Oathbreaker only has so many spell slots 🤷🏻
Thick prick Rick Bick is a sick dick.
"No, not like that!"
They say "religion" but what they really mean is "christofascism"
What's the matter Rick? Too much freedom for you?
That's something most Americans don't understand about our history. We love to claim that the first settlers in the modern-day states (Puritans mostly) were 'fleeing religious persecution' and sought a new land where they could gain 'freedom of religion'. Pretty much all of that is wrong, they were a fringe early-Protestant group who wanted to distance themselves from the new Church of England which they felt was still too Catholic. Once they got here, anything and everything they considered too heretical was... well, see the Salem Witch Trials for a prime example. They were the epitome of "freedom for me, not for thee" and that attitude/practice went on to infect the whole rest of the country as history progressed.
I mean, that is kindof Satan's whole deal.
Satan is a title. Before the King James Version, the title of Satan was used like a black hat in an old western movie. It’s not any one person or entity, it is whomever acts as the opponent for the specific story.
The KJV wanted to make the Bible more approachable for the average person, because the Church of England had a very “it’s only for the rich and powerful” vibe that it was trying to shake. One of the ways it did this was by simplifying some concepts like Satan, condensing the multiple Satans into a single recurring entity.
That’s also why the KJV leans so heavily into the thee’s and thou’s. That was informal language at the time, mostly used by the peasant class. And if you’re trying to make a book more approachable to the peasants, you write it in peasant-speak. Ironically, we tend to think of “thee” and “thou” as sounding extremely haughty, but it’s because the peasants always emulated the rich. The rich used “you” and “yours” instead, so that’s what the peasants eventually gravitated towards to try and sound proper. And now to modern speakers, “thee” and “thou” sound like they’re from an era of kings and queens, so we tend to associate them with royalty instead of the peasants who actually spoke it.
You’re thinking of Lucifer, who is often God’s henchman before he rebels. His whole schtick was that God would tell Lucifer to go tempt some mortals, to see if they pass His purity test. And Lucifer, being God’s most perfect creation, was immediately disarming and charming. Nobody would be tempted by a dude who obviously looks like a devil. God basically sent Lucifer (the world’s most solid California 10 with a disarming personality) down to earth, to tempt the dirty mortals (who pulled teeth to try and cure the common cold, and had probably never seen anything above an unwashed Iowa 1.5).
That's an interesting interpretation of Lucifer given he's the Serpent in the garden which is supposedly after his fall..
But then again what isn't contradictory about the Bible?
All that to say god had more than one henchman.
Which isn’t untrue. Not that most Christians understand this.
The KJV was also meant to be aligned with Anglican theology over Catholic theology (namely papal authority… which anglicans held belonged to… the king….)
That would imply these people knew what they were preaching and not just parroting a pop culture chimera of a relgion
Now, I'm no religion expert, but isn't Satan the first cast out angel of heaven, doomed to rule over hell for all eternity? Doesn't sound "henchman" to me. Sounds more like the guy who can't leave his job getting all the clients the other guy doesn't want to manage.
The original Bible doesn't mention any kind of Satan.
It's an adaptation from the later Quran terminology shaytaan or al-Shaytan, which means demon, devil, evil spirit, anything that is against God.
In the Quran the first shaytaan is also said to be Iblis, the first fallen angel (equivalent of Lucifer, as the origin story matches up quite closely).
Later Bible translations adopted this terminology as the name Satan, but in reality it's more of a title as above explained - it can be applied to any hell-dweller who's gone against God.
Then of course this morphed into many meanings... so there's multiple ways to interpret it:
all in all, it's basically the worst religious insult one can use.
More akin to the guy who thought he could do the job better then his boss quit in a huff and opened his own business. Then proceed to just get bought out by his old boss and now is fucked twice.
Satan sounds like my kind of guy 🥳
What a simple minded bumblefuck. 'oh no, a curse'.
The ridiculous part of this whole thing is if you listen to what the guy actually said, if you get rid of the 'dear dark father' at the beginning and 'hail satan' at the end, it's actually a pretty good invocation that SHOULD have no problem at a council meeting.
Didn't at all sound like a curse to me, sounded like good advice for a city council.
....let us stand now unbowed and unfettered by arcane doctrines born of fearful minds and darkened times. Let us embrace the ... impulse to eat off the tree of knowledge and dissipate our blissful and comforting delusions of old. Let us demand that individuals be judged for their concrete actions, not for their fealty to arbitrary social norms and illusory categorizations. Let us reason our solutions with agnosticism in all things, holding fast only to that which is demonstrably true. Let us stand firm against any and all arbitrary authority that threatens the personal sovereignty of one or all. That which will not bend must break. And that which can be destroyed by truth should never be spared its demise. ..."
If you ignore the Lucifer stuff, it's a damn solid invocation. Apparently that pastor dude couldn't see past the Lucifer stuff and called this a curse.
True, but he also probably would have a problem with most of the content as well as the flavoring
When you're interfacing with the world emotionally, that's how it goes. I mean, we're all emotional, but for some people that's the bulk of it. Emotions create reality. For other people they're more advisory.
All they have to do to undo the curse is walk three times backwards around the courthouse while wearing necklaces of garlic, wild onion, and nightshade.
“There are two things I know about white people. They love Rachael Ray. And they are terrified of curses.”
oh man. It made it hard to watch the show after she laughed about how she would go with her husbands yearly trip to southeast asia but it was a special boys only trip. must be uncomfortable as heck to work on that show.
its really all you need to know.
edit: ok I thought of a few other things we like: yoga, therapy, music by black musicians that black people dont listen to anymore, bottled water, gentrification, farmers markets, food without spices, and wes anderson movies.
Am very white, nearly see-through, so I know these things.
Lucifer was the most beautiful of all angels and was cast down to earth for daring to question God's authority.
Not that any of those cross eyed bear-ing Christians would know that.
Edit: apparently this is Milton's fanfic.
That's fan fiction, it's from Paradise Lost, not from biblical canon
TY! TIL.
Corrected, or at least acknowledged.
It's been a very long time since I've read the old testament.
IMHO it's all fanfic.
Technically, all stories are made up, be they prose or poetry.
The Bible is the canon story so Milton would be fanfic.
If the Bible was fanfic, it implies the canon lies elsewhere. I consider it a fantasy epic, but a really really dull one. It's like someone thinking Harry Potter is non-fiction - you'd have to be special to think it happened.
Wasn't it the Council of Nicea (or something like that) that more or less assembled the Christian Bible as we know it today? Which means there're a bunch of stuff that didn't make it in.
Some of which appears in Jewish scriptures and in Islamic scriptures or lost to time.
If it's written by fallible men, and edited by fallible men, then its "Canon" isn't worth shit.
The Bible is fanfic in the sense that most of the books were written decades after the life of Jesus and add details that contradict eachother and some retcons.
For example, Matthew 28:11-15 adds a story about guards at the tomb of Jesus, the author of that gospel wrote it 100 years after the alleged "resurrection", by then there were already rumors (and he probably knew about it) that the body of Jesus disappeared because it was stolen not because it was resurected. So, by adding that detail to the story he countered said rumors. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
They literally put the ending on the cover! No sense for narrative arcs or dramaturgy.
IMHO I agree
The entire new testament is fan fiction. Iēsous of Nazareth didn't write any of it, the first assumed author never even met him.
The "biblical canon" of today seems to be more or less just whatever was later dictated when Christianity became the Roman Empire's state religion. Who knows how much other, potentially more accurate reports about Iēsous were lost during that dictatorship?
Now, I agree that Paradise Lost does not have any claim to veracity. I would just also say any claim the new testament has is null and void.
The whole Bible and every other "holy" book is fanfiction, technicaly ¯\(ツ)/¯
yeah I was about to say, just cause ones older than the other doesnt give it any more credibility.
They were still written by men, men with agendas. Same with every translation they've gone through, Not only getting translated, but having minor to major tweaks to suit the new agendas.
You gotta specify which Josh though, he's Josh with the ointment
The biblical canon is written by flawed, biased narrators though. I think it's perfectly valid to project an alternate canon onto their story.
Most of the bible is fanfictions "according to (insert prophet here)" i think its closer to a Hatsune Miku situation where any bible verse can be canon
I’m not saying Paradise Lost is a literary achievement on par with the Bible. I’m saying the Bible is a literary achievement on par with Paradise Lost.
So the figure of Satan is exclusive to that specific book and religion then? ("the Bible"). You know that it's largely based on other religions and books, right? 👀 Bible doesn't have more or less authority over Satan/Lucifer/Bahomet/AnyOtherOriginName than Paradise Lost or any other holy or not holy book 😬
apparently along with several other angels that rebelled with him, depending on which lore you want to get into.
The word "Lucifer" appears only once in the Bible (Isaiah 14:12), and is a Latin translation of the Hebrew "hêlêl", which was referring to Nebuchadnezzar II, not Satan or an angel or any other supernatural being.
Christians*
* yes, yes, not just them, others too.
I'm in Texas, where this kind of nonsense is standard. I've spoken out at multiple school boards to successfuly stop in-school prayer time. Most of the evangelical folks pushing it grumble about it without understanding that we are saving them from themselves.
The most interesting address was a devout Christian lady who had come from a district where they approved it early. She said one day her daughter came home doing sanitaria and when she complained, the school said that there was nothing they could do. She begged the schools not to make the same mistake.
Do you mean Santeria?
They also had a million dollars.... But they spent it all....
We need to find that jaina and that Sancho that she's found
What about 1 million dollars?
Nah she was cleaning everything like crazy and the mother did not believe in germ theory.
Nah sangria, the Spanish Catholics decided to have fun with the communion wine
I don’t practice Santeria/I don’t listen to Sublime/So why is it stuck in my head/All of the ti-i-iiime
Santeria is some cool shit. The history of it is fascinating, and the rituals are beautiful.
I can't help but wonder at the fundies that want to insert their beliefs into the government. The separation of church and state protects the church from the state just as much as it protects the state from the church.
After all there's no guarantee that the official state sanctioned religion couldn't end up being Mormonism or Islam or any of thousands of other religions that you might object to. Even some of the founding fathers were deists who created the depictions of blindfolded justice and lady liberty to be new gods of America.
Even as a Christian myself, I'm glad that the satanists are there to help teach this lesson.
The number of Christian sects in the U.S. isn't 1, isn't 5, isn't 10, isn't 20. It's more than 200. It's very clear that Christians don't and have never agreed with each other so it is absolutely rediculous for any Christian to think "what we believe" means all Christians. Hell there are so many people that call themselves non-denominational simply because they don't want to claim parts of the Bible hated by others.
If we tally it up according to Christians all Christians will go to hell, which they made up.
This is also not getting into the innumerable folk branches of Christianity which basically range from Neo-Nazis to Celtic-Americans who are borderline anarchists and think all organized religions are cults.
Can you imagine what Trump would have done if he had control over an official state religion?
We'd have official Trump bibles in every school. They'd be changing doctrine to more closely align with Trump's values. He'd be threatening them if they ever spoke against him
So I actually think that the government officials did about as well as they could here.
They let the person make their statement, and then someone not in the government interrupted to say they had to "undo the curse". Official said that wasn't in the agenda, and then the mayor said they would just pause for 30 seconds to reflect before moving on to keep things from getting off the rails.
Galloway spent the moment of silence with her head up and her arms crossed. An hour later, she spoke up. “Opening with an invocation means allowing viewpoints that may not reflect our own and responding to someone’s invocation is a slippery slope to putting a financial liability on the taxpayers and allowing others to object or respond. This is exactly why I had concerns about having an invocation when we first talked about it.”
Agreed. Build the 30 seconds into future agendas. Have the religious piece (whatever it may be), then 30 seconds of silence for anyone who needs the time to get their jimmies unrustled, then move on.
Or, even better, just have the 30 seconds and tell everyone they're invited to silently issue any invocation they want during that time, then they're moving on to actual city business. Hell, let's bump it up to a full minute, just to be extra nice.
Let's allow prayer in government functions.
Surprised Pikachu face
No, not like that.
Around here, “evolution” and atheism are considered religions. I have personally heard people preach against “those who worship at the altars of science”.
Another citizen, a pastor named Rick Bick, rushed to the podium. “Let’s just reverse that curse that was just put on our city,” he said. “That ending with hail Satan and hail dark god. That’s not welcome here.”
They only recognize the "dark god" when it exists in the other. A theology of hypocrisy.
What did the council think "religious freedom" meant? They should be blessed it wasn't a Scientology rhetoric or symbolic narrative.
Now that would be highly demonic and inhumane.
Well, there’s Cathartic, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, New Calvinist, Presbyterian, Fellowship, Chirch of Christ. Yep, I think that’s about everyone. The Muslims know to keep their heads down around here because we do this sort of thing and I think we’re ok with the Jews for now.
-The Council probably.
Badass ex councilman. And yeah, if any prayers belong at the beginning of government proceedings it's ones like that.
Looks like stupid, hypocritical Republican Christians are having the day they voted for yet again. FAFO you bunch of morons.
But a huge chunk of Americans already worship Satan! 🤔
Satan and the Antichrist are separate. Wearing the red hat means you worship the antichrist, not necessarily Satan
Baphomet myself.
Lucifer, so of the morning 🎶
"Oops, I thought this was freedom only for me."
Fundies: WE DEMAND RELIGION BEING INSERTED WHERE IT DOESNT BELONG
Satanic Temple: rubs hands together excellent.
Fundies: NO WAIT NOT LIKE THAT. ONLY FOR US.
I grew up independent evangelical. Many times, a visiting pastor would say something the home pastor disagreed with. Invariably, home pastor would use closing prayer as a way to correct what the visiting pastor said. Sometimes they'd turn it into a mini sermon of their own with scripture passages. This is like that, but way funnier.
All hail the dark lord Satan!
“Let’s just reverse that curse that was just put on our city,”
You can't just reverse it! Got an Uno reverse card on you ? Thought not. As the man said, "it is done". The only way to undo this kind of thing is the Scottish Play Technique
Ideally, religions (yeah, including mine) should be as away as possible from politics, but it's priceless to see christians' reaction when they hear the names Satan and Lucifer. I've been at that other side once, it really feels "scaaariee" when we're a christian, feels like He's gonna suddenly pop up out of the thin air with a flamey trident and an evil laughter "muhwhahahahah" while approaching to perform a bone-crushing bear hug (in reality, He's too busy with His own cosmic businesses to keep performing to we the hominids at the Pale Blue Dot when someone says His name out loud here in this quadrant of the universe, and He doesn't have a trident or a trisula, these are Poseidon's and Shiva's departments, respectively). Sad thing most christians don't know about their own Isaiah 34:14, so they would be clueless when/if someone were to say out loud "Ave Lilith" (or, even better, "Renich Viesa Avage Lilith Lirach")... An idea of which I leave here as a suggestion to Iowa, by the way.
My mother was a lifelong devout catholic and always described satan as simply a shorthand for the absence of good rather than a powerful entity. Though I guess she was pretty progressive.
IMO if your conception of god exists primarily in contrast to a powerful demon, you're kind of just building your life around a demon.
you’re kind of just building your life around a demon
Oh hell yeah, you’re making it sound cool
They can do all the praying they want before the meeting—quietly to themselves or in a group peaceably gathered. Their insistence to impose on everyone in the room—and be disruptive when they don’t get their way—is a purely political move to control the room or narrative. They consider it discrimination if anyone objects due to the separation clause, or just having their time wasted by these fakers. Modern US Christians do more to promote atheism than any atheist ever did.
Pastor Rick Bick!!!!!! I’m dying, I can’t breath, and I’m dying. This can’t be fucking real life. This is perfect.
It's times like this I'm proud to be a paid-up, card-carrying member of The Satanic Temple or at least I would be if they'd send mE MY FUCKING CARD. Anyway, here's the Seven Tenants of TST.
It's funny but the control the superstitions have over people is sad. Wake up to reality, this is the only time we exist and nothing after this, no reward to right the wrongs so enjoy this only time to be conscious stardust. The power to transcend the ego control is within us now. That anyone thought seriously about undoing an imaginary thing, is super senseless and waste of energy. Read The Demon Haunted World to understand the world accurately and no more useless, invisible dragons would be awesome!
Satan? I do not believe in Satan, leprechauns, pixies, ghosts, werewolves, jujus, angels, Tooth Faeries, Odin, Thor, Zeus, Ra, Brahma, Athena, Hera, Poseidon, Yahweh, Allah, or the Trinity, demons, devils, Astrology, the Tarot, Satan. For the same reason in every case: there is not the tiniest shred of 𝐚𝐧𝐲 𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐦 𝐨𝐟 empirical, 𝐥𝐨𝐠𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥, 𝐡𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐨𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥, 𝐨𝐫 𝐜𝐨𝐫𝐫𝐨𝐛𝐨𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐞𝐯𝐢𝐝𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐞𝐱𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐨𝐟 any 𝐆𝐨𝐝 and the burden of proof rests with those who wish to believe. Even given no evidence for specific gods, we could make a case for some unspecified "intelligent designer" or "prime mover" or begetter of "something rather than nothing"?
By far the most appealing version of this argument is the biological one - living things do present a powerful illusion of design. But that is the very version that Darwin destroyed. Any theist who appeals to "design" of living creatures simply betrays his ignorance of biology. Go away and read a book. And any theist who appeals to biblical “evidence” betrays ignorance of biblical scholarship. The burden of proof rests with those who wish to believe. Even given no evidence for specific gods, could 'his ignorance of modern scholarship. Go away and read another book. As for the cosmological argument, whose God goes under names such as Prime Mover or First cause, again no evidence. Because physicists are closing in, with spell-binding results. Even if there remain unanswered questions - where do the fundamental laws and constants of physics come from? Obviously, it cannot help to postulate a designer whose existence poses bigger questions than he purports to solve. If science fails, our best hope is to build a better science. The answer will lie neither in theology nor - its exact equivalent - reading tea leaves. In any case, it is a fatuously illogical jump from deistic Unmoved Mover to Christian Trinity, with the Son being tortured and murdered because the Father, for all his omniscience and omnipotence, could not think of a better way to forgive "sin". Equally unconvincing are those who believe because it comforts them (why should truth be consoling?) or because it "feels right". The wife of a former UK prime minister may stand for the” feels right” brigade. She based her belief on “an understanding of something that her head cannot explain but my heart knows to be true.” She aspired to become a judge! My’lud, I cannot provide the evidence you require. My head cannot explain why, but my heart knows it to be true. Why is religion immune to the critical standards we apply not just in our courts of law, but in every other life?”
Richard Dawkins
Is this an LLM account?
Or else a Dawkins quote as it says it is, same difference.
No evidence for the Prime Mover? Something had to start the ball rolling somewhere. Was the ball always rolling? That makes no sense based on the life/death, on/off, one/zero life we see all around us.
Fun fact about space-time: there is no time "before" time. The human words like always, before, and other bullshit we see around us are only make sense in our world at our scale, and that's infinitesimally small part of the reality that we even know about, and who even knows what we didn't discover yet. There are sets of very complicated mathematics to try to make sense of that stuff, but we don't have a way to talk about it using our everyday terminology.
The universe is weird. Quantum foam literally allows creation from vacuum energy. We obviously don't have the definitive answer but there's no need to invent a concept when we can save a step instead of having the complication of who made the prime mover.
The "prime mover" is a false solution, since it claims something out of the universe was always there and made it exists. So that the universe don't need to have always been here... But if something was always here, there is no reason to suspect it is a weird entity that defy all the rules we know. It could be that the universe was always here.
Also, as we have no clue of the rules applying out of the universe, we can not really explain its begining (nor even know if it has a begining).
so right. I mean its like saying the prime mover was just always around but he was created by god-god and then god-god-god made him and so on.
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@lemmy.world
Welcome to the News community!
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People often seem to forget that “Religious Freedom” means all religions, not just yours.
Never mind the importance of the separation of church and skate state
save