It’s a bad deal that only policy could really fix at this point.
If you’re the only store with real menu prices then customers just get price shocked at what they’re actually going to be paying when they can go next door to another restaurant that doesn’t tell you the full price up front. Customers would be upset at a mid $18 burger, but are fine with a mid $16 burger + $2 tip.
Imo, the problems stem from the forced rat race of no one having enough money excluding the rich. Prices being high wouldn’t matter if people got paid more, but cause we’re not getting paid more, the companies that target the general population just make everything into cheap knockoff crap to still turn the same or better profit margins.
Policy created the problem.
That's also a surefire way to piss everyone off! It's hilarious to see the extent that restaurants will go to keep the menu price low.
I think you mean cabin bag
Fortunately the EU is revoking that
Base price needs to be with a cabin bag + personal item. Then they can make a discount if one decides not to take the cabin bag but at least the comparison includes it from the start
Tbf they'd have to reprint their menus on that fancy laminated paper just while the eurotrash is in town and then swap back to the old ones when they leave in like what, a week? When will this dumb association football tournament end?
Anyway nobody is going to Kinkos, they're gonna add a 20% surcharge in the computer for the week and remove it after. I hope they only do it to people with an accent too and give locals the normal price.
They'll raise their prices and give the employees nothing, just wait and see.
Hang on.
So you're fine if restaurants raise their prices 20%,
But not fine simply doing the math to add that 20% yourself?
What is the real difference there? The price would then be the same, you'd just get a lower "advertised" price. Functionally there is no difference tbh, besides the marketing of saying the burger is $9.99 instead of the $11.98 you'd pay with a 20% tip.
So now the menu says "burger, $11.99" but you don't tip, ok, so, and? What really is the functional difference here? You're paying the same price either way, the literal only difference is you have to do the math yourself or be an absolute prick for a 20% discount because fuck that server. Is it just hatred of math?
Mmhmm, so you admit there's functionally no difference other than having to do math and have no argument, but still refuse to admit I'm right so you're gonna pull the "other nations" card and shut down?
Well guess what, "you're" (those visiting I mean, I don't have an airtag in your pocket) in this nation so get used to how it works here loser, I guess. You don't see me going to Japan and shoving tips in their server's pockets, because tipping is disrespectful there and despite it being a cultural difference between us I'm not too fucking stupid to adjust.
The funniest part to me is I'm the one with math anxiety (it's real), and I'm still capable of doing this..
OHHHH you want a 20% discount but also want to feel morally superior to the server you stiffed to get that discount, after you've paid the owner their profits to perpetuate the system you claim to hate. Figures.
Because tipping is inherently biased (there’s plenty of data that shows that it’s unfair af) plus the whole history of why it exists (read it up).
Pay your workers a living wage and get rid of the excessive tipping culture you have there. It’s also bleeding into our side of the pond
Since you are already calling people loser it tells me everything I need to know about you.
Cheers
So you're fine if restaurants raise their prices 20%,
But not fine simply doing the math to add that 20% yourself?
Yes, exactly.
What is the real difference there?
Well...
The price would then be the same, you'd just get a lower "advertised" price.
It's this. It's misleading advertising. And this kind of misleading advertising is proven to get people to spend more money, which is exactly why restaurants do it.
Same thing with not including tax in the advertised price. It's all about screwing over the customer. Nothing else.
EDIT: I'm sorry people are being so hard on you. I'm not here to insult you and downvote you for having an opinion I dislike, lol
You're cool lmao, those others are selfish pricks without a real argument who want a discount. They're one step off from the people who make fake complaints to get free food but for some reason don't want to return the "mistake" (it wasn't a mistake, they want free food, they think I can't remember 30 whole minutes ago but turns out I'm not a goldfish). You actually had something to add, not only is that "fine" but I like it!
Now, I do actually agree with you, but also functionally everyone here knows "burger $9.99" includes neither tax nor tip, so it is actually $9.99+10%tax+20%tip.
I'm not saying I'd be mad if we changed the menus to reflect those additional charges, but as it stands we don't and as evidenced by this thread, whether the world agrees or not they know that is the custom. As such claims of false advertising are tenuous at best, you knew going in, and we know you knew, being a gaijin/n'wah is no excuse (at least after let's say two days and two purchases).
For instance, though I've never been I know tipping is seen as rude in Japan, as such if I ever did get to visit (too poor, and that's another thing if you can afford to travel like that you're doing better than EVERY server so help them out like you would the homeless, they're close enough to homeless as is), I wouldn't be attempting to shove my American custom of tipping the workers onto them. Literally "same but reverse" here.
You're right, it is in a sense "false advertising," but still there's not really a functional difference since everyone knows (or once they learn upon their first purchase if they didn't, I suppose).
Idk how EU countries handle sales tax though, is it actually included on the sticker price like they do in New Hampshire, or should they be more used to this concept than they are letting on?
It's called VAT and its included in the price. Companies get taxed on category specific things and upcharge the base. We see what we pay here. In fact there are laws about price as well, if the price at the till differs from the shown price on the pricecard/tag they must sell it at the price shown or risk fines
Beware though, buy it first then go service desk for refunds
If you complain in store or at the register they run out and fix the tag
those others are selfish pricks without a real argument who want a discount.
Lmao that's not at all the problem and you're here in bad faith if you act like you believe that it is. I just want servers to be paid a fair wage (minimum wage at the very least but the problems with minimum wage are an entirely different conversation) and not be expected to pay a multimillion dollar company's employees for them
Yeah, what I'm saying is that I don't want to be nickle and dimed, because it makes me feel like a victim of deceptive marketing.
No matter how strongly you know that your $9.99 burger is actually $14.00 (or more because tipping on the machine is often calculated after tax), psychological studies show that $9.99 tends to subconsciously mean "under $10" to people...and to services like Google Maps.
We've created this culture that it's okay to subconsciously deceive the customer to extract an extra $0.01 (or $1.00) out of every purchase...and an extra 10%...and an extra 20% if it's at a restaurant.
People who set a price limit for themselves of $20 will gladly go into a restaurant and buy something that's $19.99 and feel like they've stayed within their budget.
This is the problem. I don't like living somewhere where "buy a meal for under $10!" means I need to spend at least $15.
So you're cool with employers paying people $2.70 an hour because they might get 20% in tips? Advertising a lower price for something but then seeing extra charges on the bill that you didn't even know you agreed to when you sat down?
That makes more sense than just paying the people a livable wage and showing people the actual price they will pay?
Brainwashed people think this way.
No as I said, the employee feels a difference, tipping would then be mandatory as it is baked into the price, good for them.
But what is the actual functional difference TO YOU, the customer? Beyond having to do math and having a choice on tipping, of course. THAT was the question.
Yeah I am aware of my local customs and if I travel I learn the practices of the place I go, so "that doesn't happen to me." I see the price and know that tax will be added, and tip will be given, so math must be done. It really isn't that difficult. If I went to Japan I wouldn't tip, because it is rude there, so while I'd feel like a jerk not tipping as it is the culture I'm used to that is my problem to deal with instead of forcing them to take the cash.
Should it change? Sure. Has it? No. Until it does not tipping only harms those workers you claim to support.
No u.
If you'd like to elaborate, I can too. For now that's all the response you get.
It's not my fucking job to make sure your workers are paid appropriately. I came here for a fucking steak and some freedom fries. I paid for my fucking food and I just want to eat it in peace. Stop turning your problems into my problems.
But here's the thing, it ain't the owners' problem either. They're winning. The whole reason they do this is to externalize labor costs and do ad hoc market segmentation, except it's based on customers kinda being dicks. When you don't tip in the US, you have sided with the owners and have said to the server, "you are worth minimum wage."
Agitate the rest of the day. Tip at mealtime.
Wrong
The owners are the bad actors here. They enjoy increased margins in an environment where additional salary top ups are somehow the customer's problem.
Pay your waitstaff you cheap fucks
Or, don't eat places that don't pay their workers
Yep. Continuing to patronize that establishment, whether or not you tip, perpetuates tipping culture.
Yes. Those are your choices. Either
A) don't eat places that don't pay their workers
Or
B) Tip at the place you chose to go to that relies on tips.
It's literally that simple.
To be fair, the workers dont want the livable wage either. 20% tip is much better than what they would get paid.
It's so fucking stupid
Just raise the prices by 20% and also pay the staff 20% more.
But fuck workers' rights and living wages, right?
They wouldn’t need to raise prices that much.
During the Obamacare debate the Papa John’s CEO was upset that he would have to raise pizza prices a few cents to pay for the health insurance his workers need. Wealthy people are psychopaths.
Tipping is fucking stupid but it is the current system for how US waiters earn a living. So to fuck them over and not tip does nothing to change the system and only leaves them overworked with no money.
Think materially and tip your servers. Believe me they would like it to change too. It isn't them that keeps the system in place. Big business has the money to lobby against our human and material needs.
Former euro server here. Got a livable wage plus tips. Not the mandated kind, just the extras people would leave. That would net me 5 euros per hour above my livable wage.
Y'all living privileged idealogue navel-gazed lives can do what you want I guess. We here in the working class are tired, overworked, and are trying to survive the day.
This is generally false. Most waiters would see more consistent income with fewer instances of subjective nonsense like ideologues who don't believe they have to follow the basic cultural rules of the place in which they visit. There is an exceptional subset of waiters that would make less for sure but they are in a minority.
If we all participated in a “tip strike” and stopped leaving tips, the front of the house staff that relies on it would quit. Eventually the restaurant owners would have to do something about it.
Unfortunately, it seems like the owners would rather add a gratuity fee than rise prices on the menu and pay a decent wage.
One can hope though that eventually, tipping would go away. Sorry bar tenders and servers. Some of you may struggle but it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make meme
How about instead of a "tip strike" (aka "make the servers work for free until they get fed up because fuck them") you do a "boycott" ("not fucking go at all so you don't have to tip and you're not forcing the worker to serve you for free")?
You can't sacrifice your night out for your ideals but you can inconvenience your server? Real magnanimous, thanks.
Nope. It's not my obligation to pay their wages directly. They can accept no tip, they can lobby for a living wage from their employer, or they can find a different job. I am okay with all of the above.
The only way change happens is through action, not just crying about it. If you want change, stop tipping.
ah yes, put the onus on the people just trying to survive while still patronizing the restaurant that the owner continues to make profits on.
If you feel this strongly, you should boycott all restaurants that make their servers rely on tips.
Yet still the only one hurt is the worker, the boss got theirs when you paid for your meal.
"The worker can leave if they don't like serving me for free while worrying about homelessness" yeah, and you could cook at home or go to a restaurant that doesn't use the tipping model (they exist), yet you chose to go somewhere that the worker relies on tips and enjoy in the exploitation with the owner, you are an essential part in keeping the business running the way it does. On top of that you exploit them further yourself by knowing full well how it works and who you're really hurting and justifying it in your selfish mind so you can pinch pennies. Even if the worker does quit the owner just pulls the top application off the stack and gives them a call, there's a revolving door of people willing to do whatever they have to to avoid becoming homeless. Most often that worker then just cycles to another restaurant an continues the cycle themselves as they can get another waitstaff job easier than anything else.
Not only are you literally changing nothing, you're actively participating in the exploitation you claim to be against, you're not the business owner, no, but without you his exploitation wouldn't work.
But then what is the difference? Literally just "not doing math?"
If burger $9.99 + 20% tip = $11.98, and you're fine with paying that $11.98, why does it make a difference if the menu says "$11.98" or you do the math yourself? Are you also mad tax (in most states) isn't included on the sticker price of retail goods, or are you fine doing your own math when it comes to tipping the government?
And does that apply to taxes, which also aren't included in the menu price? Why am I supposed to take the brunt of this issue as a poor worker and not my boss or government? Fuck me for not wanting to be homeless? Why doesn't ONE comment in this thread besides mine mention taxes though they follow the exact same logic?
Is it because you want to pinch pennies, and you can choose to not tip but have to pay tax, and deep down you know you're only fucking over the employee but have to sanitize your conscience so you can save 20% on your bill?
Tbf, while the system exists as it does, not tipping the workers only hurts the workers you supposedly support, their employers don't care because they got theirs already and there's a revolving door of people who need work bad enough when the worker gets fed up.
If you actually wanted to help those workers you'd have to entirely not support businesses that use the tipping model by "not going there" and only go to ones that don't. Or you could go, but while there try and unionize servers, I suppose. But then when the workers strike for the thing you want you'll still have to not cross the picket line so it's the same in the end just more effective.
I practice what I preach btw, I only go to restaurants that don't run off tips for the most part, and I tip when I do happen end up at one of those places. Sometimes I'll tip even at places that don't really "run off tips" but I want to help out a bit, like my local taco truck, I love them so much and don't mind throwing them an extra $2 to show my appreciation, they're not rich people it's just a family trying to get by, with great prices no less.
To summarize: I don't pass out info on unionizing, but I do support non-tipping businesses on average and still don't fuck the workers over in a misguided attempt to hurt their boss when I do end up at a tipping place.
This is it 100%.
I'm shocked at the amount of responses here willing to make the workers suffer so that they can continue getting their food/drinks and supporting the owners taking advantage of the system.
What did you expect? They come from non tipping cultures. Where wait staff make livable wages. Not their fault we are incapable of paying people enough to live.
Tipping culture does exist in europe, but first of all, it isn't nearly as "mandatory" as it is in the US, and second of all we tip way less. There isn't a fixed percentage you "have to" tip. Usually, if the waiter was nice, it's just rounding up to an even sum. At least here in germany.
In Spain tipping is there, but it's quite sparingly done.
I don't know any statistics, but wouldn't be surprised if people gave tips no more than once a month on average.
Depending on the place and service it could be rounding up the bill or adding a note for the waiter. Rarely a tip would go over 10€.
When in rome, do as the Romans do. You may not agree with it, but it's how it works here and not doing it is taking advantage of a worker not the restaurant
No it’s not. The only one taking advantage of workers is the restaurant owner.
If tipping is optional, why the hell would anyone “choose” to pay more? Imagine if I sold you a phone and said you can buy this phone for $500 or you can optionally pay an extra $100 and get literally exactly the same product. That’s tipping.
If tipping is mandatory, then make it clear beforehand that there is a mandatory fee and how much it is.
If you raise prices then fewer people will eat at your restaurant because the prices are too high.
If you go someplace and get waited on, and you KNOW that not tipping them means you basically took their labor for free, you are also an asshole. If you think not owning the business abdicates you from that, then you are just as bad as the business owner who thinks the custom abdicates them from paying a living wage. You're not a crusader for justice, you're a cheap jerk.
In New York, which the article is about, the hourly wage for tipped employees is only $2.70 less than usual. So if a server waits on 5 tables an hour, each table only needs to tip $0.54 per hour to make up for the "lost" wage. Anything extra is just voluntarily financing the server's fancy new handbag or iPhone. And in New York, like most places now, the employer is required to make up the difference in their pay if they didn't get enough tips, so even if you don't tip you're not taking anything for free... the employer has to cover it.
Wait staff are assholes thinking they can guilt trip people to hand over extra money for free when they're simply doing their job. Doubly so when they aren't even sharing the tips with the kitchen staff who are doing the real work.
You could choose not to eat at restaurants that take advantage of their workers. That's always an option.
Well yeah. If you choose not to compensate your server then you are taking advantage of the situation as well.
Nah, fuck tipping. Pay a livable wage.
Not tipping doesn't help us get there, it just means some server worked and didn't get paid.
If they don't get paid why work for these greedy bastard ?
people like you, believing this kind of bullshit propaganda pushed by business owners lobby, are the reason why things are getting so bad in the US... next thing you'll tell me unions are bad and affordable healthcare is some communist bullshit.
if the business is not paying their employees livable wage they should not work there and the business should go bankrupt. yes, there are many people who wouldn't find any other job right now. and they can choose to suffer temporary unemployment now or accept to live indentured life forever.
history clearly shows that workers not accepting unbearable conditions ultimately leads to improvement for everyone. guilt-tripping customers into giving alm to employees instead of paying them actual wages is just postponing the inevitable.
If the business is not paying their employees a livable wage, customers shouldn't eat there.
here we go again. always shift the blame...
it's not us producing excissive amounts of plastics and offering no alternatives. you must separate your trash to save the planet!
it's not us destroying the market and not paying our employees. if people really wanted the change they should boycot us!
Oh do fuck off with that. The customer isn't taking advantage of the worker or the resturant. The employer is taking advantage of the workers.
If it's not optional. Include it in the price up front so we all know what we're paying.
I do agree with you, and I also find it extremely annoying that I am expected to give a tip. However, when I go to the US I know their society works like that, I am visiting and I respect their customs, regardless of how idiotic they seem to me, I just treat the tip as part of the price and there's that.
What I really find annoying of waiters in the US is that they know you'll give them a tip and attempt to their best to be servicing with you all the time. Asking you several times if all is good, you need something else and so on. I remember once I took a beer with my girlfriend in a bar and before I got to drinking half of that I was asked by 3 different waiters if everything was alright several times as well as being asked twice if I wanted another beer.
Fuck off guys, if I want something I'll ask you. You're not being kind by doing all this, just annoying.
Yes, because you know this, and you might just accept it as cost of doing business. But not everyone knows about this. And honestly, some might just forget as they're busy talking about the games or the stores or whatever else they want to go see and visit.
I also understand that's "how it works" in the US. I've visited plenty over the years.
But what I take issue with is when tourists are being blamed. Because they're not the problem. They contribute to additional profit for the resturant. The problem is the management that can get away with not paying their staff enough.
You, tourist, not tipping ain't gonna change shit, it just leaves a working class person hungry. At this particular World Cup it's probably an at least somewhat well off customer leaving a working class person hungry, given how expensive tickets are.
You know what would end tipping culture? Unions. Act annoyed that it hasn't happened if you want, but it's not yours to change. For as much as Europeans like to lecture Americans about ineffective protest methods, they think doing something that benefits only them is a protest method. Don't go to restaurants in America if you can't accept this. Yeah I know, Lemmy people don't visit America, blah blah blah royal you.
I don't normally like generalizing people based on country or continent but I read it so damn much that I really stop giving a fuck when the people doing it reveal themselves to be massive hypocrites. It's like listening to a "do as I say not as I do" parent. (btw what's up with y'all condemning nativism in America and then falling hook line and sinker for it when it's your countries? I see that a lot. Yeah I know, Statue of Liberty poem, but the racist narratives are bullshit everywhere.) If the way I lean is a sign of entitlement, I better see you willing to confront YOUR entitlement.
No one is thinking that tourists will change your lack of labour laws. You're just feeling pissy because tourism for the Epstein Cup keeps highlighting everything fucked with the US. You, and this article are fantastic examples of what's wrong.
You're defaulting to blaming the tourists for not tipping, rather than the employers that dont pay their staff, or the legal framework that allows it to take place.
The resturants are all full with tourists. Clearly there's more than enough turnover and profit to pay staff with...
As for the last thing you wrote. I have no idea wtf you're talking about. Maybe you should check if your house/apartment has lead paint. That would explain a lot
It is 100% taking advantage. If you accept the labor of a person and you know that most of their compensation is at your discretion, and you don't do it because you aren't forced to, you are just as exploitive if not more so. I mean do you really need it to be baked into the price to force you to do the right thing?
100% of their compensation is at my discretion. I'm paying for the meal. There was an advertised and agreed upon price of said meal.
When i go into a grocery store to buy milk. I'm not tipping my cashier for handling my transaction. I expect that to be included in the price of the products i buy.
The right thing. Is for the employer to pay their employees.
Most people from a non tipping culture don’t know how to tip. They don’t know how much, is it inappropriate, do the stuff get it or does management steal it. Really is a big deal.
Lol non tipping culture... Bro ... In Europe we tip often when the server is nice and provide a good service. It is unimaginable that server are some sort of slaves which have to beg customer because they employer don't pay them their fair share...
Definitely not the same thing. I was very confused when in the US as to what I should tip. I knew tipping was expected but in several occasions I asked the waiter what an appropriate tip would be.
In most cases adding a couple dollars to the price is not enough and could be seen as an insult.
In Europe I don't often give a 20€ tip after paying 100€ in a restaurant.
It's not hard to do the smallest amount of research about a place you are travelling to. I travel all over and always look up the local customs.
So have I but I find it hard to know what is appropriate and what’s ridiculous and there is always this internal tension about am I getting ripped off or am I ripping someone off. One of distortions seems to be waiting staff received more than the people doing the cooking. It’s a really bad system.
you mean "when in a dystopian exploitative society, do as the dystopian exploitative societies do"? :)
I think it means "don't go and if you go, shop at a supermarket". Problems solved.
I think you're attempting to be facetious, but like
YES.
I understand your point of view, and even to a certain degree agree (too bad it’s about tipping because fuck that). But these are not normal tourists you are getting, that did any kind of research. These people are here to drink beer and shout at each other, and are already very upset that everything is so expensive.
They are from Rome though....
If you fully knew that Nazi Germany was Nazi Germany and you just decided to go anyway cause you love sports so much?
Lol bruh, it's tipping relax.
These people are shit.
Fucking Eurotrash the lot of them.
I don't even disagree, tipping sucks and we should raise the price 30% and give that directly to the employee because fuck non-tippers.
But as it stands the only people these eurotrash are hurting are the workers they claim to support, then they say they're hurting you for your own good.
Go the fuck home.
No, no, no. They just take the money! It's the customers responsibility to pay the servants. Don't you guys know capitalism?? /s
Should we pay an actual wage?
NO! ITS EVERYONE ELSE WHO ARE WRONG!
Fuck american tipping culture… Pay your staff fair…
America once again showing the world what a dystopian shit show it is. People are travelling to what they think is a developed country and so rightly assume all workers are paid a decent wage. Certainly European visitors would assume that. Highlights once again the need for a minimum wage and union support for workers.
Why would they assume that? America is famously a shitty country for workers. You'd have to know nothing about the country you're visiting to not know that
Why do North Americans tip when they go to Europe?
So its safe to say that they assumed...which is what MnemonicBump is vilifying the whole world for doing in the US.
Because we're an uneducated shithole, obviously 😝
Why would you assume they know about employment norms?
Because it's normal to learn some things about the country that you're visiting before you go, and it's not a exactly a secret that the U.S. isn't doing well right now
Is it normal to look up employment conditions? I don’t think it is.
How is adding a required 20% gratuity to a bill at a restaurant not false advertising? The restaurant advertises the food costs X dollars, then you get your bill and it's now 20% higher?
Exactly, it's not only deceptive but also ignoring the fact that many visitors are likely not earning on par with people in New York and are making decisions about where to eat based on the advertised prices.
All these bars and restaurants talking about how busy they've been and have massively increased business during the world cup. They're aware of the tipping problem yet still somehow can't find the cash to cover the difference so that their staff get a normal wage.
They could share some of their revenue windfall with the wait staff. But instead they complain to news outlets and add an automatic 20% markup without prior notice to extract even more money from the visitors.
Agreed; in Europe the price on the shelf is what you pay at the register. In the US, sales tax still hasn’t been added in to the price displayed on the shelf so it’s anyone’s guess what the actual price is.
Oh what ever shall we do? The cash registers are bursting with cash due to the influx of visitors... but they're not tipping the servers.
I see absolutely no way that employers could make the situation fairer for servers, even if it were only for the duration of the event.
Gosh, if only there were some way!
Doing it for the event would set a precedent. Next you know, they'll expect that to continue when it's over. How am I going to make them bend over backwards for customers and bear all kinds of abuse with an apologetic deference just so they don't risk their income? People might stop coming in to hurl insults at my employees while giving me money for the opportunity.
Note that if a worker fails to get to minimum wage through tips, they are owed minimum wage by the employer.
However, minimum wage is pretty crap.
Your point stands that compensation should be baked in of course, it is just that normal minimum wage does kick in if the tips fail.
And tips are normally reported as a percentage of gross sales. Technically you can report less, but thats a good way to get catch a tax audit, and if the total tips reported from the restaurant fall too low the whole place will be audited. If your actual tips are short for the day the standard practice is to report the normal percentage and eat the loss.
No, that is not normal practice. If you do that, you aren't just eating the loss of what your employer should have paid you, you would be paying taxes on money you didn't make.
I had a manager at a bar try to feed me that line after a very slow shift and I refused. Anyone pushing that as standard practice either has been direly mislead, or is screwing you over for the company's profit.
Wow, for real? This is a good argument in support of abolishing tipped wages. Is there anything you can point to for that being standard practice so my source isn't just an internet person? It's clearly not going to be written down anywhere, so I'm looking for an article or written testimony and not finding anything
Supporters say the move is intended to protect American servers
Protecting the servers from the customers!!This is a joke, right? If you really wanted to protect American servers you pay them respectable wages.
Tipping does not lead to better service. Arguably worse, They want you out asap to get the next tipper in the seat.
Also, can't see why someone should pay a waiter more for bringing 5 steaks an 5 champagnes instead of 5 burgers and 5 soda's. Kind of the same job and effort.
I remember when I spent time in the US, tipping was the absolute worst part of the experience.
If I was with a big group going to a restaurant we would have a server constantly checking in with us, chatting and telling stories, getting us deals and freebies. When I would go out alone I would get ignored. If I dressed down I would be treated worse than if I was dressed up. One time I even waited an hour for a table before walking out as larger groups got seated ahead of me. How people are treated is based on how much money they think you'll hand over.
Everything about tipping is greed and it's gross.
And then there’s also the fact that people that work less busy times or times where the people visiting the restaurant are less wealthy earn less per hour than their counter parts
Or how men or people of colour also earn less in tips.
Or how many times they aren’t even shared with back of the house staff.
It’s just a stupid system overall
Tipping does not lead to better service.
Spoken like someone who's never experienced a French waiter.
French waiters are honest, which I prefer.
Some of the best service I received was in Hong Kong, it was efficient and moderately rude
Maybe better is not the right term but tipping definitely results in politer and usually faster service, there is no point in pretending it doesn't have an impact.
And I'm against tipping culture, I'm just not in denial that it has an impact.
You people are so obsessed with attention and false happiness. The server doesn't care about you they have to beg and grind to get to minimum wage. It's one step above indentured servitude.
As a server: I literally do care though. I love my regulars and it makes my day when they come in.
I'd still care just as much if I got paid a living wage, but like, don't say we don't care when many of us absolutely do.
Lol, you don't know shit about me.
I definitely think we should pay a living wage to everyone and I'm working to pass that in my city & county, but that's doesn't mean I'm in denial about the faux friendliness that results from tipping culture or that the staff are more attentive (it's much less common for staff to ask if you want more drinks without you having to get their attention in countries without tips than those with)
In the US I hated how the waiters were always bothering me with fake smiles "everything ok sir? do you need something?" while I've got my mouth full of food and no interest in conversation. I'll call if I need something, thank you.
I like living in a society of peers, I don't need to feel "served".
You're showing your usian bias, of course its less likely that a server elsewhere in the world is going to interrupt your meal. That doesn't mean they won't be available when you need them. The rest of the world doesn't expect or what someone interrupting their experience every 5 minutes, but we know we can signal them when we need something.
It sounds like you want to improve the working day for your own people, but you need to recognise that what you are aiming for is already well below the standard.
There are plenty of ways to get faster table turn that don't involve rushing your customers, like making sure the food is prepared quickly and accurately, or taking payment earlier so that customers can leave whenever they would like.
Obviously, yes, more tips makes more money than less-but-slightly higher tips, but a good server will manage to achieve both high quality and efficient service.
But yeah, everyone needs to make a livable wage, and tipping culture only helps the owning class.
No one should tip anyone. Tipping supports wage theft. If no one tipped, business models that depend on tipping would find no one to hire, so they'd be forced out of business, or need to start paying something closer to a living wage. Yes, this would happen on the backs of those currently working such jobs, but if nothing ever changes, then nothing ever changes.
I owned a small resto/bar in Spain. My employee's minimum wage was dictated by a sectorial collective bargaining agreement. I had to pay them at least that amount, altough I could pay more for especially good/experienced workers. The base salary was almost 3 times minimum wage. On top of that I paid almost 50% of their salary to the social security system, which covers retirement and health system contributions ( the country has full universal care). Tips are customary, but in the 5 to 10% range, but never required. No server would dream of making an issue for not getting a tip. tips are a thank you, not an obligation.
Yes, I did, I was just rolling out delivery, and weather Covid quite well, but I realized I wasn't cut out for that type of business. I was fun for a while, made good money, but it became a rut. I'm a serial entrepreneur (ADHD), so I keep jumping.
10 IF NOTHING CHANGES:
20 NOTHING CHANGES
30 GOTO 10
It's faketran
fauxtran was right there
You think that, but then they always have a revolving door of people in a bad enough position, young and kicked out by their family, newly divorced, any number of reasons they're desperate enough to seek a quick hire and fast cash. Most have a criminal record hindering better employment, the restaurants don't drug test but even grocery stores do, if you smoke weed in an illegal state fuck yourself, if you have a real drug problem in any state fuck yourself again.
And call me when you find a way to bring everyone in this country together on ANY issue. Good fucking luck lmao.
The only way to actually change it would require all those customers to actually make a sacrifice themselves and stop going to the restaurant at all. This would still fuck the workers, but it would be the only thing that also affects the owners. Of course most people refuse to learn how to make their own burgers and chickey strips, so that'll never happen either..
But at least I'm not deluding myself into thinking I'm hurting the workers for their own good. Why don't you just bend the server over your knee and spank her for being a bad girl? I'm sure (just like not tipping) it hurts you more than it hurts them, poor baby, you shouldn't have to discipline your servers like that, when will they learn??
I mean, rather than a spanking, maybe you could just make a law to make employers pay a livable wage?
If they can't because they would go out of business, then they should go out of business.
We agree.
But as it stands, the servers do rely on tips.
And the only person you're hurting by not tipping in the current system is that specific server.
No you're not "helping them actually" by hurting them. That is what abusers say. You are siding with the exploitative business and telling them "it's ok that you operate this way."
Either boycott all tip reliant businesses, or tip while you're already crossing the proverbial picket line. It's that easy.
The "abuser" in this situation is the employer that doesn't pay enough so that their employees can pay rent and then shrugging it off as if there is nothing that can be done. As if there is a law stopping them from paying a fair wage.
They know that the server will stay on a less than livable wage because otherwise they'll fire them and find someone else who is desperate. This is predatory behaviour.
By not tipping I am not "siding with the exploitative business". Continuing to perpetuate this "culture of tipping" is, however.
I DO already boycott all businesses that make servers rely on tips for a livable wage. I do also tip servers for good service, but it is in addition to their wage, not to make up what the employer refuses to pay.
It really is that easy.
That's a very myopic view of things. Let's talk about child labor, for one. Child labor is wrong. But no family, let alone families, went "You know what, this is wrong. We're not sending Timmy to the mines, no matter how many of us starve from the loss of extra income." Your solution is that: That people should bypass unionizing, bypass striking, bypass political engagement, and should just jump straight into starving instead of working these jobs.
What the fuck kind of analogy is that.
Children died in the mines by the hundreds. Those who got out had their lifespans slashed by decades because of the harmful stuff they inhaled on a daily basis. And your argument is that there wasn’t anything better than that?
Dipshit, my argument was that there is a better world than that, and we found it by collectively empowering people, not starving an already disenfranchised group under the boot of capitalism. If you think a bunch of servers not making rent is going to magically bring about a utopia, be my guest, just, Jesus. I hoped better of you, I guess.
That never happened. There was never a time when worker rights were won at no cost for workers themselves.
Families were against child labor laws because they would be losing important streams of revenue. As a result, it took several decades to finally regulate the practice. In the meantime, children were exploited and died, wages were kept low because supply of children workers was always high, and mining and industrial companies thrived up to the peak of the gilded age and the subsequent Great Depression.
I mean, may be a hot take, but I don't think people who usually send kids to work are such great parents. They maybe "have to", because they can't stop fucking and have like 15 kids, so of course Timmy needs to go to the mine, or else they couldn't feed all of them
And people being selfish like that also translates to the server problem - if any underpaid server inherited a restaurant inherited a restaurant, do you think they would go "I'm gonna be different. I'm gonna pay my staff a fair wage, and allow them to have a union"? Lol, of course not. Probably all of them would think "I had to work for 2$/hour, now it's your turn. I fucking to mine". So yes, I do believe starving is the right solution, because I do not believe many of them care about a systemic change.
Buddy, all people can be selfish. That same argument applies to very industry under capitalism. And you think everyone starving is going to lead to some collective uprising? I'd love for you to read a history book; sure, starving people are truly the most altruistic.
All big revolutions ever were born from suffering
Username checks out
Accelerating your fellow workers deeper into poverty isn't the way.
But paying your fellow workers wages, because their boss wouldn't is?
You say that like the prices wouldn't just increase by 15 to 20% if tipping wages became illegal.
Because that's what they're doing.
All you're doing if you refuse to tip is taking money out of a fellow working class person's pocket.
But subsidizing their abusive employer is, right?
Wage theft is the largest type of crime in the US. A huge amount of employers are abusive, not all of them have workers at tipping wages.
Maybe instead of taking money out of another working-class person's pocket, we need to actually have some class solidarity.
If you don't want a tip, don't eat there. But eating in a place like that and refusing to tip is just hurting other working people.
You've wandered into the only group of liberals that doesn't have any functional empathy.
These people think the prices would just stay the same if tipping wages were banned and it's absurd.
No class solidarity at all.
Privatizing the profits, socializing the risk.
Yeah, call me a dick but I don't tip off percents. I refuse to give the server more just because the price of my food. I'm more likely to give a server who's actually working their ass of at an Applebees or random diner a bigger tip overall than an overpriced place.
No literally, I don't think I've ever tipped based off percent before
OK, you're a dick.
I mean, you either go with society's convention and tip a % like everyone else, or you're a dick. You chose poorly.
I wouldn’t insult anyone over it. I’ve been around and I got opinions about all sorts of things people might think I’m a dick for, but I generally agree with you. “When in Rome, do as the Romans do”, which is why when I go to Rome I like to sexually harass at least one woman on the street. (A day)
I visited the US 3 years ago and tipping was a bloody pain in the bum. It added probably 20min to our meal as the waiters took a while to get change. Further, asking every 15 minutes how our meal was going was quite exhausting; mainly because we knew it was performative for more tips. We tipped 20% each time but it's really, really frustrating not knowing the price up front.
Back home, I'm used to paying up front and then leaving as soon as we're done. Waiters leave you alone, unless you're a regular, and ask you how the meal was at the till if you pay after.
To be honest I hate tipping but I find that to be the positive thing about tipping.
The thing is, if you know you will be tipping 20% everytime then you do know the price upfront. It's 20% higher than the menu price.
Then, if you get horrible service you can choose to give yourself a 20% discount by not tipping rather than fighting with management to give a discount.
I don't want my waiter to leave me alone. I want them to be attentive to my every need. A good waiter knows how to appear just when they're needed.
You’re living in a fantasy land. Nobody appears when they’re needed, you just happened to look up when they had a moment free.
You act like a guy bringing you fish and chips is some genie in a bottle popping out when you need a top off on your Diet Coke. Give me a break lmao.
I see you've never been to a nice restaurant.
I'm from Europe and I apprecaite a good waiter since majority of them really aren't very good. I haven't been to US but if its true that this "good service" means being interrupted for soda refills then that for sure does not mean good service.
It's not "culture" it's unfettered capitalism. Make your staff beg your customers for their wage instead of paying it yourself, great for bosses.
In that case just put that price on the menu like they do in other places. Including taxes in the price would help with the confusion too.
Which could be accomplished by simply raising prices by that amount and then paying the staff appropriately and not have this end run around complicating mess.
The staff would hate that. None of them want it. 20% is far more than what they would be paid even under "a living wage". They know it, the restaurant knows it.
Sounds like you don't understand what a livable wage actually means.
Or that you're a manager yourself and never had to live off an unlivable wage.
Sounds like you have never worked for tips.
Its really fucking weird getting down voted and then insulted when chances are you have never had this conversation or worked with people in this industry.
Many restaurants have tried this. The staff do not want it: it always pays much less, and keeps them from being able to pull better nights than others.
Yes outside of america it works, but once you get a taste of that income with tipping, you dont want less.
I'll even back this up:
“The survey data is crystal clear: Tipped employees overwhelmingly prefer the current tip credit payment system, and they don’t want it to change,” Corder said in a statement provided to Restaurant Business. “It’s rare to find an issue that commands such widespread support across diverse age, race, gender and geographic groups.”
I despise 20%. I tolerated 10, maybe 15, but when it became 20 as the baseline with 30 now looming on the horizen, I am about to just say get bent.
The prices have gone up, so the tips have gone up. Why did they make the leap to 20%? Basically its like adding another person to the table.
Now I know people will say they should be paid a living wage, but from every server I know they absolutely do not want that. They want the tips, it pays better.
I don't know what the solution is. The people who make real money make far beyond that, and there is no doubt the cost of living is through the roof. I cant fault someone for wanting to get a little more, but I am just not going to keep shelling out 20% more on top of dinner that already is 2 people for $150 before tip.
I plaid 20 during COVID to show gratitude for places being open and practicing good protocols. Now I’m back to 15 unless service is extraordinary.
Does this lead to the situation in which waiters in an expensive restaurant earn significantly more than ones working in cheaper ones?
Do waiters try to get jobs in more expensive places to earn more from tips?
Yes, and yes.
It has been 20 for like 20 years. Anything else is foolish. Any argument for 30 that involves "inflation" is stupid and doesn't understand how percents work. Like 20 or not, that's the norm. If you don't like paying it then either don't go out or go places that are cheaper so it's less.
Naw fuck that. They get tipped what they earned. If it's 5$. If it's 30$. It in the rare case, 0. You don't deserve a tip unless you provide the service to go with it. If I see you once or twice, and I have dirty dishes and have to call over another wait staff to refill drinks. Get fucked.
These kind of sane solutions to problems don't belong on the internet. We come here to be irrationally angry over everything.
Didn't know this was a hot take but America hasn't provided tip worthy service for decades.
I would even wager that Gen Z and A would be blown away to see the level of service quality something like the boomer generation experienced.
A tip in America hasn't been a "bonus for good service" in decades; its the server's wage.
Yeah, most Americans just have a personal tip amount
They should try to change this terrible custom
Oh right cause they come from civilized countries where people actually get payed. I get both sides but the system is the enemy, not the people.
It varies though. Here in northern Italy tipping is rare to the point where it's kind of a social blunder. Many restaurants take a pride in excellence, both in food and service. In any given place, what they offer is what they offer. Trying to pay extra for that might come off as crass and unnecessary, rather than a welcome gesture.
Apart from being simpler, this is more respectful to waiting staff as a profession. How they do their jobs and what they get paid is between them and their employer, they aren't obliged to kiss your ass in the hope that you throw them a few extra euros. It's a different power dynamic where customers and staff are interacting as social equals.
Also it's not uncommon that the person serving you is actually the restaurant owner, or a family member.
Yea, because tipping is intended to be optional.
The mere fact of trying to pressure or force the tipping will make sure I regard the service as not tip worthy.
"European restaurants pay staff like any other profession and workers don’t rely on tips, so customers assume they’ve already paid for service".
Europeans are right on this one. The more years go by, the more I find tipping to be ridiculous. Tell me upfront what you expect, then I'll choose where to eat. Managers must adapt to customers, not us do their minimum wage employment practice.
Fck the NY Post! It is a tRumpian rag not worthy of fishwrap.
The cash registers are ringing, the beer is flowing and the tables are full.
I live in KC. The restaurants are not full. I’ve seen article after article about how lodging reservations were low before the tournament and now that it’s started, no one is filling restaurants.
You're right about the wages.
We do have a tipping culture in Europe though. It's just different. The details vary by country/region. But waiters earn a living wage here and tips are an optional bonus for very good service/food. They are not alms for the exploited.
Maybe if the US paid a decent minimum wage...
As far as tipping, Reynolds understands why some visitors aren’t leaving American-sized gratuities.
“They’ve already spent a lot of money to be here in the first place,” he said. “The tipping, I’m not too fussed about it.”
His advice? Embrace the local customs.
“I think if you do come here, you should just engage in the culture because I think you’ll have a better time.”
In what way tipping makes my stay better? American are so far up their ass they made tipping their culture. If you just include it into the price and then pay the waiter/waitress like human being then there won't be any confusion.
Imagine Americans going to other countries and complaining that they don't get free refills or free water and saying stuff like "if you'd just increase the cost of everything, you could afford to offer free refills and free water"
Like, I agree, tipping culture sucks and I wish it wasn't the norm in America but IT IS and to just go there and pretend like they should change overnight for tourists is such a wild take.
Getting pissed at tourist because you lie and say something is not mandatory when it actually is such a fun hyperbole to read. Especially since they are not there to visit the country. They couldn't care less about culture of the US. They are there to watch football (yah, not soccer) and it just so happens the world cup is there lmao. I hate football and I'm so glad I don't feel the need to go to such a worker exploiting country...
The bosses who make their money regardless and exploit the worker say it isn't mandatory, the workers who are actually the ones affected by lack of tips say it is mandatory, wanna guess why the discrepancy exists? Because the boss makes their money regardless and you only harm the poor worker by not tipping, that's why. The workers couldn't care less about your dumb fucking game, pay me or don't come in, fuck my boss, and fuck your reasoning for being in the country, you are so act accordingly.
(The royal you, I read your comment lol)
And "soccer" was originally British slang for "association football," gridiron football outpaced it in popularity and won the title "football" over association or rugby football. Big ol' "who cares" on that one.
I'll never understand why the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" people see it as everybody else's responsibility to cushion the inumerable blows from their abusive relationships with their employers.
What the fuck is signing a reciept?
In the US we sign for most transactions that can have a tip.
Typical restaurant flow would be:
- Server gives you an initial receipt with your subtotal on it so you know how much you owe
- You give them your card, they charge it the initial amount and give you a second receipt
- You write in a tip amount (and calculate the new total) on this second receipt and sign it
Our credit card companies don’t require signatures anymore so we don’t have to do this nonsense when we buy anywhere that doesn’t take tips (grocery store, department store, etc.); I assume restaurants just want some sort of “proof” in case you try and dispute the charge later.
I have an even more radical simplification: Just list the actual amount of money that the customer is expected to pay directly on the menu and then that same amount of money once again on the bill, just like the entire rest of the world does it!
I agree, however I was not suggesting a better solution; i was asking why it is not done that way.
Do you know why and can explain or do you just enjoy derailing conversations?
Yes, and it was a source of great confusion for me. Just let me write the tip on the first bill.
That US tipping culture doesn't make any sense. Tipping should be optional when customers think they got wonderful service. In other words, it is up to the customer to decide and not part of the "menu", neither should it be an expected component of the employment package, it should be a bonus not given by the employer.
What really doesn't make sense from a customer perspective is that recently everywhere you go somebody is asking for a tip, but you're only expected to tip:
- Taxis but not busses or trains.
- Restaurants but not fast food restaurants, and sometimes restaurants add a service fee that may or may not include the expected tip, especially if you are with a large group. Typically, you are expected to tip if you are assigned a seat, somebody takes your order while you are seated and brings your food to you, and you pay after you eat.
- Food delivery but not any other kind of delivery.
Examples of inappropriate places where a tip is sometimes requested but not expected:
- When placing an online order from a warehouse.
- When placing an order at a fast food restaurant.
- When buying something that you picked up off a shelf yourself and carried to the checkout.
It makes lots of sense when you realize that it makes more money for the owning class, so they like it a lot.
Also it got started right after slavery ended, so you can imagine who was getting told "sorry you didn't make any money today, better luck tomorrow."
Tip is a con
Are drinks and food at least cheap in restaurants in the US? Cos then the high tips could at least be a tiny amount justified.
There are cheap places everywhere but places for drinking and watching sports usually aren't.
Usually no, fortunately I have this local Italian place that's like $14 a meal including tip, literally everything is under $15, I don't know if they work for the mob or not but I'm not turning them in if they do. $8 for sub, fries, and drink. Probably would have been $2 cheaper to go to subway and not tip, plus it's so much better than subway.
lmao NY Post getting pissy over what they call barbarians not leaving tips.
Ignoring the reality the unwritten rule of tipping for exceptional service was taken over by the restaurants and turned the gesture into a formality serving the owners, and the waiters now get gypped below minimum wage.
I guess the tourist never really cares about the local custom or the local worker. It's up to the locals to fix their labour laws.
There is a no tipping culture in Europe.
Maybe this is the event that can spark change. If people aren’t tipping, so servers quit their jobs to go work somewhere with better base pay, owners will be left taking the hit.
I’m sure they’ll find some way to make the workers suffer instead, but this could be what’s needed to get rid of corporate “tip culture”.
Unless you have a degree or work a skilled trade, it's pretty hard to find a job that out-earns serving. Most places, good servers and bartenders are actually making enough to live on (after tips), which you'd only get in retail if you're management. (Sometimes not even then!)
Former food service worker here:
You have to break into the unskilled office/warehouse sector, but to do that you almost have to know someone there already.
Or (if you're lucky enough to be able to, most aren't as they keep you purposefully locked in), restaurant your way through trade school and pick one up. Now you have a new set of problems (you're locked into "helper" and nobody wants to teach you enough to compete with them, pretend you don't want your license), but you're paid better to have those problems, and imo they're easier to work around than selfish prick customers that want to hurt your boss by giving him money but "help" you by telling you to fuck yourself.
Still hard, but "retail" ain't it, those are your only options.
That isn't how it works, the worker quits and the owner hires another person who needs a job bad enough they're applying there. There's a revolving door because it's easy to get hired, there's no drug tests or background checks or min experience (they say there is but it's a lie, they'll hire children), all the people applying need that job now because they need to pay rent (and most in the industry are addicted to something which helps them be exploitable), or they can't get hired anywhere else because of a criminal record, etc.
Revolving door goes brrrr and the workers either cycle to a "better" restaurant in the same system or finally break free and learn a trade or something, but the system continues exploiting the next individual and always will as long as you are willing to support the exploitation by patronizing the establishments that work this way. The only way to end it is if you the customer stop giving the business itself your money instead patronizing restaurants that pay fair, the business doesn't care if Susan gets tipped, they got their money for your steak, Susan is the only one who cares about wasting time serving you for free when she needs to make rent to avoid homelessness.
Trust me, I was so close to homeless working in a restaurant job, stuck in an abusive relationship because they paid their half of the rent and without that I couldn't afford to live anywhere, they ended up leaving before I got out and I was down to the absolute wire but I got a better job and pulled it through, borrowed a few bucks from some friends but made it. The restaurant didn't change because I left, they just got a new "me." Probably been through 5 of them by now and there's more lined up to take the 6th+ place.
I know what we have to do is hard but we can involve but punching your boss in the dick
“Tipflation” is the worst part. It’s annoying as hell when staff tell you the terminal or kiosk is going to “ask you a question” and the fucking thing asks for a tip while they’re staring right at you. It’s gaslighting people into questioning whether to tip for something that typically wouldn’t require a tip, and whether you should tip to avoid having your food spat on, etc. Then the suggested tip percentages are often inflated and if you want to tip lower, you have to fumble around with the “other” button while they continue to stare. I’d say vote with your wallet, but every place does this now.
I’ve lived here all my life, and I’m not always sure when I’m supposed to tip or not, so not sure how anyone visiting from a country with a more rational system is expected to understand our broken system here.
The way to vote with your wallet on this is to not go to the restaurant, not to still go and then be an asshole to the underpaid staff. Not leaving a tip doesn't hurt the exploitative restaurateur or the system you "disagree with" but are still willfully participating in as far as it suits you. Also, fuck the Post.
Way too many people in here speaking for "Europe". I live in Europe as well, and here tipping at a restaurant or a delivery driver is 100% expected. It isn't usually as much as the US, but tipping exists here as well.
Also, when in Rome... plenty of people here get upset at Americans for not following cultural norms, seems fair to get upset at people visiting America for not doing the same.
Can you eveb get a sollar outage of the sun so why you nakeing these people pay for the frotrage. Minnesota? No I don't do that
Look, I worked in restaurants for half of my adult life and even though the system is fucked for tips it's not like the wait staff has a say in the matter so punishing them by not tipping is completely pointless. That being said, I'm pretty sure 90% of wait staff agree with you about tipping but are unfortunately stuck in the system just like the rest of us. But even when considering all of that it's absolutely insane that people are expected to tip when it costs $100+ just to go out to eat with a few friends.
Basically what I'm saying is that it's generally a more complicated issue than it looks from the outside, but the long story short is that the staff are the ones getting fucked over by everyone else and it doesn't make sense to punish them. It's infinitely more helpful to leave a negative review than it is to not tip the wait staff. If you do that it actually brings attention to the issue and hurts the business instead of just punishing someone for trying to do their job.
90% of waitstaff (if not more than that) LOVE tipping culture because they get more money than they'd ever be making hourly by serving without tips.
(Talking about servers in places with tipping culture, of course)
Never tip in the US. Do not listen to wait staff whining. The only reason they cry about it is because they make far more than they ever would on a stable wage. If you don't pay them they will still receive the wage they agreed to.
Eurotrash won't adjust to or learn about any culture they disagree with.
Ameritrash won't adjust or learn about any culture they disagree with.
SLAM!
The situation is that proprietary_blend committed suicide
Ha. Nice.
So you work in the service industry in a WC host city you say?
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Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/...
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
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Unless it's by raising their prices by 15-20% and paying their employees a living wage, it ain't gonna work. Tipping is moronic.
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